REASONS TO GO PUBLIC

I am relieved every day that I went public with Dunetz's abuse, despite my feeling very humiliated at first. Not because I wanted revenge but as someone who believes strongly in God - I believe it is our duty to tell so the other person can get help, try to change (if possible) and help others around them. It is horrifying to realize that you were USED for free sex with lies and then told it's your own darn fault .

But even more horrifying to not speak up about it.

I do not believe in cover ups - which is why I went public with my own behavior in this and what I learned happened from what happened to me. I fully realize now I was mind controlled by someone who was pulling my strings. I learned how this was done, how my own oxytocin and serotonin was used to manipulate me and get me to cross my own boundaries; and then blame ME for it. I no longer accept that blame because it was never mine to start with.  

I have gotten so many private emails from victims about this blog. They said they saw their own Sociopathic or Narcissistic abuser in what I discussed here and then I was able to direct them on to get help, validation and heal from what happened. The other emails are from other bloggers or net users who have had run-ins with Dunetz's ongoing hypocrisy, need for attention, and explosive anger with anyone who doesn't agree with him or cover-up for him, and so on. It has been very validating but sad that he has made no attempt to get help for his pathology and continues to beat down anyone who holds the mirror up to him and his behaviors.  

More on rebuke, telling and the 'right thing to do': 
 ________________________  

I wonder where folks get the idea that Judeo-Christians have to be meek and mild, silently enduring mistreatment, tolerating anything anybody else does, and timidly standing by while abusers trample all over them and other innocent victims. Since when is it a sin to speak out against evil? This is what our abusers want us to believe, and they just love throwing it back in our faces anytime we protest their behavior. They provoke us to anger, they cause untold pain and suffering, and then when we finally speak up, they smugly inform us that we’re not acting like “good Christians or good Jews”. This is hogwash. Abusers would just love for us to back off and be quiet while they do anything they want and get away with murder. Satan will always try to use our righteousness against us, to get us to question our faith, and to separate us from God. This is just another one of his tricks. 

What kind of awesome, wonderful, All-Good God would our Father be if he actually wanted us to allow wickedness to operate unchecked in our families and our lives? This concept is preposterous, and contradicts the perfect goodness of the Lord. Our God is All-Good, and the devil is all-bad. They are diametrically opposed for all eternity. God instructs his saints to take a stand against evil and fight the good fight, not to keep silent and hide in the closet. It is God’s plan that good will triumph over evil. We are the Army of God. We must put on the full armor of God and stand against Satan and his army. That is our assignment, and our destiny as a child of God.

When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul....Ezekiel 33: 8-9 KJV

Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own conceit....Proverbs 26:5 KJV

 

It is truly a wonder to behold the amount of time, energy, and creativity that abusers and their Silent Partners (spouses, family members, new partners) will put into inventing an infinite variety of lame excuses to justify why they should be allowed to continue hurting others. How much easier and more constructive it would be to just re-direct and devote all of that effort into simply changing their behavior. But They Don't Want To. So, whether confronting your abuser, or reading about all of his ridiculous excuses, keep in mind that all you're really asking of his, and all he really has to do, is JUST STOP IT. Here are the reactions we ourselves experienced when we began to set limits on our controlling or abusive relatives, as well as reactions other sisters have reported.

• I HAVE NO IDEA WHY YOU'RE MAD AT ME
• DENIAL
• INAPPROPRIATE AND JUVENILE DISPLAYS OF ANGER- GRITTING TEETH, SCREAMING, SPEEDING UP THE CAR, NAME CALLING, HANGING UP THE PHONE, PUTTING THE PHONE DOWN AND WALKING AWAY WHILE YOU'RE STILL ON THE LINE AND THEN PUTTING IT ON THE HOOK, BLOCKING YOU ONLINE, or SEVERAL MINUTES LATER, MIMICKING, IMITATING, OR MAKING FUN OF YOU WHEN YOU COMPLAIN OR CONFRONT HIM, ETC.
• ACCUSING YOU OF TRYING TO START AN ARGUMENT, YELLING AT HIM, SCREAMING OR SCREECHING AT HIM, OR DELIBERATELY TRYING TO UPSET HIM.
• BECOMING VINDICTIVE OR VAGUELY THREATENING-"YOU'D BETTER BE SORRY FOR WHAT YOU SAID", AS IF YOU HAD NO RIGHT TO CONFRONT HIM. CRYING OR LAYING ON A GUILT TRIP-"I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU WOULD SAY SUCH A THING TO ME", "YOU DON'T LOVE ME", "HOW CAN YOU BE SO MEAN TO YOUR OWN MOTHER/FATHER/HUSBAND/WIFE/FRIEND?"
• 'I CAN'T CONTROL MYSELF', 'THAT'S JUST THE WAY I AM', 'IT'S SUBCONSCIOUS', 'YOU KNOW I DON'T MEAN IT', 'I HAVE TROUBLE EXPRESSING MYSELF' AND VARIOUS OTHER MENTAL PROBLEMS
• YOU MISUNDERSTOOD ME/ YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT/ YOU TOOK IT THE WRONG WAY
• REFUSING TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY RESTITUTION, AND PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.'
• HE'S OLD AND NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS BEHAVIOR
• BLAMING YOU
• BLAMING SOMEONE ELSE
• 'I DID IT FOR YOUR OWN GOOD'
• 'WE WERE BOTH WRONG' OR 'WE BOTH HURT EACH OTHER' WHEN IN REALITY THE VICTIM DID NOTHING WRONG AT ALL.
• TRIANGULATION
• SARCASM
• 'I SAID I WAS SORRY' WITH NO CHANGE IN BEHAVIOR OR ACCOUNTABILITY TO YOU
• TELLING YOU THAT YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HE'S BEEN GOING THROUGH OR WHAT'S GOING ON IN HIS LIFE, AS IF THAT JUSTIFIES HIM ABUSING YOU
• TELLING YOU HE HAS REPENTED TO GOD FOR WHAT HE DID TO YOU, SO HIS CONSCIENCE IS NOW CLEAR
• TELLING YOU SHE HAS REPENTED TO GOD SO HE DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE ANY AMENDS TO YOU
• TELLING YOU GOD FORGAVE HIM AND HE DOESN'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN HIMSELF TO YOU OR RELIVE THE PAST
• TELLING YOU GOD FORGIVES HIM WHETHER YOU DO OR NOT.
• TELLING YOU GOD FORGIVES HIM SO YOU HAVE TO, AS WELL.
• TELLING YOU NOT TO 'JUDGE' HIM WHEN YOU ARE CONFRONTING HIM.
• TRYING TO MAKE YOU FEEL GUILTY
• 'AFTER ALL I'VE DONE FOR YOU'
• 'YOU'RE TOO SENSITIVE'
• 'YOU TAKE EVERYTHING THE WRONG WAY'
• REFUSING TO HEAR YOU OUT 'I'M LEAVING IF YOU CONTINUE TO SPEAK TO ME LIKE THIS'
• TURNING IT AROUND
• 'I DID THE BEST I COULD'
• 'YOU'RE THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM'
• TELLING YOU 'OTHER PEOPLE THINK YOU'RE THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM'
• TELLING YOU YOU'RE THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH HIM; EVERYBODY ELSE LOVES HIM!
• 'YOU'RE ALWAYS COMPLAINING'
• 'NOTHING I DO IS EVER GOOD ENOUGH'
• DISOWNING YOU, 'I HAVE NO DAUGHTER!' "YOU'RE NOT MY FRIEND""I'M LEAVING YOU"
• 'YOU DESERVED IT!', 'YOU PLAYED MY GAME' OR 'YOU WERE ASKING FOR IT'
• ESCALATING THE ABUSE NOW THAT HE KNOWS IT'S GETTING TO YOU
• 'LET'S KEEP THIS BETWEEN US' , 'DON'T TELL ________'
• PRETENDING TO LOSE THEIR PATIENCE WITH YOUR COMPLAINTS-'JUST FORGET IT!' 'GET OVER IT!'
• MINIMIZING THE OFFENSE, TELLING YOU YOU'RE MAKING A BIG DEAL OUT OF IT, OR MAKING A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLEHILL

from: http://www.luke173ministries.org

FULL DISCLOSURE

I want to be crystal clear about why I did this blog:  

BECAUSE I GOT SICK OF BEING LIED ABOUT.

My friends kept telling me to stop ignoring it - so I did. Now that I have done it, its out. (And NO I will NOT publish YWL's hooker reviews. Throwing up in the ladies room at 1 Police Plaza was enough for me with those.)

I got tired of his projection -  calling me a harasser, a stalker and a liar. Not because it hurts but because when it's PROVEN he lied? He just gets louder and more caustic and more hurtful to others.

I have nothing to hide except my naive and trusting nature. There have been some things said about me. I could say YWL's post is more full of slander and b.s. than Fox News... but I won't.

• Things said about my credibility and what appeared to be my actions:
• - If, as asserted, YWL and his wife did hire computer consultants? They need a refund.
• - I never got a police warrant, a cease & desist or anything from any lawyer, ISP or anyone, anywhere at anytime. If you think I did, please show me the document I would have HAD to have signed for legal delivery. Please. I'd like to see it.
• I did hear from Suffolk County Police - when I was BETWEEN hospital stays. I told them everything. (re: Det. D'Agnostino and Sgt. Best, Huntington Station Police Department, NY)

Also, I should mention that his "detective friend" who was investigating me for "harassment" was very very shocked to find out I am disabled. The detective even called my doctor to confirm (he asked me for her number).  

Det. D'agnostino called me back and wanted to know if YWL knew I was disabled. I told him ABSOLUTELY he was very aware, my ex-husband had chats where we talked about it and sent them to him along with the IP confirmations. He called me and was quite surprised. I distinctly remember him telling me he had no idea because I had been presented as one step away from being a violent stalker. 

He also had no idea I was estranged, a parent with two young children either. I repeatedly invited the Detective to come and I would take him to lunch or breakfast because I was too ill to drive to Suffolk County (which my doctor confirmed). He turned me down.  

I also sent them the confirmation obtained from Classmates.com that YWL paid for a membership to get some emails - mine included - and he contacted ME. I was not "stalking him for years" as he's been telling his friends. 

I had no idea where he'd been after we lost touch in 1976 nor did I care until HE contacted me.    

His Sargeant (Sgt. Best) later called to say it was dropped because they couldn't find any corroboration that I was harassing or stalking YWL and his wife. (seen below)

    

But I was followed to a support group by YWL and he checked my blog for weeks... by YWL. (see post on this blog "Stalker or Just Checkin' "). 

WHY did YWL do that? AFRAID OF WHAT OR WHO I WOULD TELL???? - I really have no idea why someone who found me so "pathetic" and "a nutjob" spent his time following me around to SUPPORT GROUPS? Then called ME a 'stalker who has been after him for years'....

ROFL! Wait! I get it. BEING ON a support group for victims just PROVES I am a "nutjob" right? And going to the hospital for vomiting so bad I burned a hole in my esophagus or for PTSD just PROVES I am "crazy", RIGHT?? 

Accusations have been made. I was journaling here just for myself but many people told me to make it public. I would only do so without causing any further harm to the man (whom I will only refer to as YWL herein) and his family, any of the women I counsel, or innocent parties. I am going to make it very clear, including hard proofs, where I stand and why. 

Accuse me and malign me. Its ok. God knows the truth - I have no reason to turn myself inside out to prove myself to anyone. I have zero to hide Some friends suggested that YWL is still seeing Elizabeth and has gone back to a new brothel. That may or may not be true. I don't know. Its not my business to know.

And let me make this clear: Revenge is wrong, harassment is sick and wrong. Talk to God and if you need psychological help - get it. ________________________________________________________________  

Below is just one of the many emails I sent to "exposure" sites where YWL was posted - with his real name and sometimes his personal information! I have redacted same. 

From: Ms Barbara C [mailto:barbarany_9@xxxxx.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:21 PM
Subject: Mr. JXXX Dxxxxz, gridney, yidwithlid - posted on your site

To Whom It May Concern:
I must respectfully request that your remove the above mention person from your site or database immediately. I did not make this post but someone. My reasons are detailed below:

I am now a domestic violence advocate. About 5 years ago I got coerced into a very cruel & inappropriate relationship by an old friend from college. It was a very stupid decision in a very dark period of my life. There was another woman involved and I have not heard from her since a short time after the incident.

The trauma from the ending of this wrongful relationship put me inthe hospital, in counseling, in touch with other survivors. Should you need to contact Mr. DXXXtz to verify this or forward this email to him for comment, his blog says his new address is yidwithlid@XXXX.com.

He may construe this as some further harassment on my part.

If you would like to speak to me, I can provide you with my number and full name and location. Thank you for your help in advance.

Barbara
_________________

From: <admin@cheatersexpose.com>
>To: "'Ms Barbara C'" <barbarany_9@.com>
>Subject: RE: Mr. Jxxx DXXXtz, gridney, yidwithlid - posted on your site
>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:05:28 -0600
>MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from nat.nationwidehosting.org ([74.52.90.194]) by bay0-mc5-f21.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:05:42 -0800

>Received: from adsl-68-93-121-242.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net ([68.93.121.242] helo=desktop)by nat.nationwidehosting.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.63)(envelope-from <admin@cheatersexpose.com>)id 1HOfun-0001Kw-Llfor barbarany_9@xxx.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:05:19 -0600 >X-Message-Info: LsUYwwHHNt3660MmjhEvYg2f34OAemlK3oXsmRrh6gU= >X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 >Thread-Index: AcdgJQ/jZNR9DafURhywR2/mEpWBjQABRhhQ >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 >X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report >X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - nat.nationwidehosting.org >X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - hotmail.com >X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] >X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - cheatersexpose.com >X-Source: >X-Source-Args: >X-Source-Dir: >Return-Path: admin@cheatersexpose.com >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2007 20:05:43.0129 (UTC) FILETIME=[D1FD7490:01C7602A] >

>Barbara,

> >The post was not made by you, and the poster never alleged to be you. The IP was different as was the full ISP number.

>The posting has been removed since we received your >request and proof that this was confidential material possessed by you and NYPD.
>I hope you are getting your life together.
>Administrator, >Cheaters Expose >
_____

> To: admin@cheatersexpose.com

You are absolutely right.
I hope this serves as a cautionary tale that cheating hurts everyone.

I am not interested in dating at all. I have devoted my life to my children, helping others who have been cheated on & abuse victims and cleaving to God. Thank you for removing it. I will have to do more investigating to do to see how far this has gone.

Barbara

___________________________

I will write more about what happened - in the interest of FULL DISCLOSURE. This will include pertinent emails and so on - along with full headers from the emails to vouch for their voracity.

I will make this public if I decide to. I am sorry and thank you all for listening and reading. 

My father, of blessed memory - once told me his biggest problem was he was a bad liar. "No one likes a truth teller, Barbara."

So far he's been right.

I pray that somehow someone learns and the record set straight. I have always told the truth because I do believe the truth DOES set you free.

Barbara


#ifmywoundswerevisible

THE UGLY BYSTANDER

   

by Kathy Krajco
 

I think the misplaced sympathy out there for narcissists comes from people wishing to push unpleasant stuff out of their minds so that they have but selective awareness of an event like narcissistic abuse.

When we say that narcissists lack empathy, we mean exactly that. In plainer language, they are brutal, treating those they abuse subhumanly. Their callousness is something one must see to believe. Often the victim cannot get his or her mind around it and goes into a state of shocked disbelief of their own eyes and ears. When narcissists see that they are drawing blood, they get sadistic. This behavior makes no sense till you remember why narcissists do this. They are stomping you down to elevate themselves. In doing this, they are morally trampling you to have something to thump their chests about and give a Tarzan yell. They get HIGH on treating others like dirt. So, keep a tight grip on that fact: they don't do it because it's evil; they do it because it makes them feel good. They are sick in the head. They have unbearable pain/shame inside that keeps trying to surface to consciousness on them. This pretending to be grand by stomping you is just their way of killing that pain by keeping it repressed. Abuse is an addiction with narcissists. 

The more they degrade you, the bigger dose of this high they get. Which is why they are sadistic. So, here you have them abusing their victim in cold blood sadistically. Then, when the victim complains, they turn around with their little Wouldn't-Hurt-a-Fly mask on for the bystanders, whining about their need to "heal." Yes, THEIR need to heal. Some folks don't know a joke even when it slaps them in the face like that. Right out of the bystander's mind goes what's on the other side of that coin - what that angel-faced narcissist just did to that victim. 

In other words, they take this "Poor-Little-Me" act out of context. More important, the bystanders thus avoid having to know what they know about such phony face changes = that the narcissist is diabolical and laughing up his sleeve. All they let themselves see is whiny angel-face before them right now. Because it's warm and cuddly and doesn't rattle their cage or require them to do anything about anything. Or cross this guy they are suddenly afraid of. Ah, that whiny little angel-face he has, upon whom they misplace their wretched sympathy. Then they go off and correct the VICTIM for wrongdoing. Yes, that's right: some folks don't even know a joke when they tell it. The victim has sinned by feeling angry or wanting a divorce or wanting to retaliate so as to make the abuser stop it. THAT'S the only sin the ugly bystander sees. Nothing the narcissist did gets a peep out of him or her about it.

SOME EXCERPTED COMMENTS:

At 2:59 PM, Anonymous said...

I saw the same thing with my ex. She was very pushy, but if anyone ever pushed back, she became this huge victim. Same dynamic.Here is the thing I finally discovered: With this dynamic, you can never win and this technique keeps them from every growing and moving out of the narcissism. If every time they are challenged on some statement they make, they retreat into victimhood, it means that they are avoiding the substance of the argument. It is a truth avoidance mechanism. They aren't interested in any truth. They are only interested in being heard and and seen and if someone disagrees with them, then wilt into victimhood.As usual, it is always about image.   

At 3:45 PM, Anonymous said...

I've had some of these apologist bystanders in my life, and I have absolutely no use for them. In my opinion, they are the only ones in the room more cowardly than the narcissist.I have come to believe that when they take the narcissist's side because they are afraid of the him, at least half of them are trying to convince themselves that they are righteous, rather than afraid.They take the path of least resistance, and when they are giving you that "You overreacted" crap, they are trying to believe it themselves, so they can push down that voice inside them that says, "You're afraid of the bully, you're just a little coward."And they are little cowards, too, those bystanders. If it isn't your battle, fine, then stay out of it. Otherwise, shut the hell up. Don't try to calm me down or play peacemaker just to hide from your own discomfort.   

At 5:08 PM, Anonymous said...

Two-faced, relentless sadistic abuse and butter-wouldn't-melt con artistry sounds like the N I know. But you can't blame bystanders for not seeing when even the target of abuse is repeatedly taken in by the lies, denials and gaslighting.

At 5:50 PM, Kathy said...

"...you can't blame bystanders for not seeing..."Not seeing what? That he's insincere? I think you can blame them for that. And yes, the victim unsees too. Only because the victim doesn't WANT to see, not because it's hard to see as you imply.The victim has very strong temptation into denial. Much stronger than the byestander. Much better excuse.But even the victim will eventually face facts and tell you that he or she is angry with themselves for refusing to see what was staring them in the face. So where is the byestanders confession to that effect? And the bystander has no excuse for saying, "I'm going to the north pole" and turning to head off south. It's preposterous for their only criticism to be OF THE VICTIM. It's preposterous for their sympathy to be FOR THE VICTIMIZER. And I have too often said how absurd it is to regard feeling as a sin. There is no excuse for anti-logic. I understand the bystander's fear of the narcissist and fear of getting involved. That is legitimate. But then to turn around and find the only fault you find IN THE VICTIM - that deserves contempt. Virtually every victim gets this treatment from bystanders. Narcissists just play them like fiddles.   

At 12:21 AM, Anonymous said...

on the topic of bystanders trying to calm you down or be peacemakers...... When you've been targeted one too many times and actually speak up for yourself, suddenly the bystander is there trying to "make things better"Where were they before? That is the big question. Because they could have said something a multitude of times before, when all sorts of stuff was happening, but they didn't. They only say something when they can say it and feel like they know better, that they know more, that they are more mature, or have more insight into the world and human nature than you do. Some bystanders honestly want to make you feel better, because then they feel better; you know the type, the people pleasers. But I have found the majority of bystanders are in it for the moment of celebrity that they feel when they get to use there powerful problem solving and peacekeeping skills.What I hate about bystanders is that they actually try to make you quiet down, like its a crime to show any emotions good or bad. I would like a bystander to ackowlege the targeting, but if for some reason they are in denial about that, then really can't they just let you say your part. Why can't they be your witness and hear your story? Deal with the discomfort of knowing that there is "bad" people in this world. These are the same people that say "turn that frown upside down!" in a non ironic way.  

At 2:13 AM, Kathy said...

I think these comments about the bystanders nail it.Add it up: they do nothing to counter the abuse, only speaking up to stop the victim from feeling free to do anything to put a stop to it or even act like it is happening.Those actions speak louder than words. The bystanders take the evildoer's side. There is no denying that. That is contemptible, not matter how holy the halo they put on it.They are enablers of the abuser. Like accomplices who work the situation for him to allow him to keep getting away with it. They shut the victim up for him. They call the victim naughty for even just feeling his anger, thus helping crush the victim into abject submission to the abuse. The term "innocent bystander" is an oxymoron. Like Hitler, narcissists know they can count on a high percentage of people to do this for him if he just puts on his whiny victim mask so that they can PRETEND they are righteous, not traitors betraying you to abuse. After studies of the contemptible behavior of the bystanders during the Holocaust, an inscription was placed on a monument to it (in Israel I think) that says something to the effect: 'Never again be a victim; never be a perpetrator; and never, never, never be a bystander.' Amen. Bystanders suck. To make them stop blaming the victim for rape, society had to make it politically incorrect to do so. It's about time society did the same thing with all forms of abuse. Bystanders won't stop serving as a proxy for abusers till people get slammed for doing it.  

At 3:50 AM, Anonymous said...

Witness the shameful abandonment of the victims and opponents of Saddam Hussein and his tyrannous regime by the 'Stop the War' coalition in Britain.It is impossible to appease a bully, which is why so much of this conflict-resolution crap plays into the hands of psychopaths. They are simply not singing from the same hymn-sheet as everyone else.  

At 4:21 AM, Kathy said...  

Woah! Thank you for that balm on my jet lag. As you can see, I'm operating in your time zone!Seriosusly, I agree. It's the same thing on a massive scale. A way of looking the other way and masquerading this ugly and callous betrayal as the opposite - as, of all things, "humanitarian concern."No matter where you go in the world people do this. Narcissistic and psychopathic bullies who become dictators like Hitler, Stalin, and Hussein are cynics who exploit this mass behavior like every narcissistic bully does on a smaller scale. The Islamofascist movement is collectively behaving just like that.And how can we expect Muslims to stand up to it when they see the West afraid to? I think the only hope is to shame people for behaving this way, because reason and true morality bounces off the forehead of a hypocrite. I say to them: If you want to stay out of it, fine. Your choice. But when you turn on the victim and demonize those who do have the courage to step up and take action (for the offense of putting your cowardice to shame by their example), you are sinking to the gutter
 

At 11:39 PM, Kathy said...

Join the club. I doubt there is such a thing as a victim of a narcissist who doesn't beat themselves up over having put up with it for so long. At some point you have an epiphany and see what you've done = the horrible "asked for it." By doing that, we give the N a carte blanche to abuse us; we lay down to make a nice door mat; we make it OK to abuse us because there is no response to that abuse. No complaint. No demand to even just stop abusing us. How abject. And so on.

I'm sure I don't have to describe how low we feel when we realize what we've done - how it actually TEMPTS the abuser! It's like staking out a lamb in the backyard of a wolf.

Then we alternate between anger at ourselves for it and anger at those influences in our life that trained us to think it is evil not to be a spineless wimp who keeps turning the other cheek and bending over for it with a smile. But the pain subsides. Since we are not narcissists blame doesn't kill us. We can let it lay where it may. We accept our responsibility and ARE FAIR WITH OURSELVES. Because we were influenced and trained to make this mistake. The important thing is that we stop making it.Ironic, eh? We have to repent turning the other cheek. I don't know whether you're there yet or not, but you will get there. To the point of being at peace with yourself about it. (Largely because you don't do it anymore.) Also, notice what the bitterness has been about here. Not about bystanders keeping out of it and doing nothing - about the bystanders landing on the VICTIM. Trying to supress the victim's complaint and turn the victim into docile victim, a glutton for punishment who just keeps taking it as though it ain't happening. THAT'S what makes the victim furious with the bystanders, righteously furious. We see right though them, and it ain't a pretty sight. But that isn't what you're talking about. 

  

At 6:01 AM, Anonymous said...

thanks kathy. the second post i tried didn't get through and was pretty elegant last night- let's see if i can get close now. i said something about how innocent bystander IS an oxymoron. it makes me think. i hated being an 'innocent bystander' only i choked on the word innocent. i felt helpless- but mot innocent.shoot i really can't remember what else i said. something about how having the words to put with it all is helping. anyway thanks for your site. thanks for being here. jt  

At 6:05 AM, gh said...

Ah, thanks for this one, Kathy -- always a good reminder. When I divorced my N, certain friends and family seemed to go out of their way to continue nurturing a relationship with him -- and he with them, for what better way to perpetuate abuse than to try to lure away the people who should be there to support and encourage the victim?At first, I excused it, thinking as one commenter said above that I could hardly blame them for being taken in by his act when I myself was taken in for so long. They were just being good people for giving him the benefit of the doubt, right?Then it hit me -- to give *him* the benefit of the doubt, they had to deny that same benefit to me. The day one of my supposedly oldest and closest friends berated me for not taking my marriage vows seriously and not doing enough to try to make it work, a light switch flipped. *I* didn't do enough?? All my ex had to do to save the marriage was to stop abusing me. He wouldn't/couldn't/didn't do that. In pointing the finger of blame at me this supposed friend necessarily had to accept his song and dance that he was trying everything he could and had to reject (or, better, turn a blind eye) to my side of the story.There is a time, sure, that you can excuse the bystanders for not seeing. WE do our part, no doubt, to cover for the N while being abused. But when you speak out about the abuse and the bystanders choose to blindly accept the N's stories, this is the ultimate betrayal. All you can do then, I think, is run from these "innocent" bystanders as fast as you can. They'd rather see you continue to suffer than to have to give up their comfortable ignorance.

At 8:14 AM, Anonymous said...

Once again I am struck by the intelligence, sincerity and similarities between yourselves and all of the rest of us. I believe and have been shown this CELLULARLY, that narcissistic abuse only happens to the BEST of us, and hopefully we each can take our journey of healing and make something astonishingly beautiful of our lives.

At 10:35 AM, Anonymous said...

Hey Guys, Stop! There we go again blaming everyone but the cruel manipulator who's evil makes no sense and totally diarms all within reach of it. What my son said out of hurt and pain toward his brother who he loves but does not like is, "I can't do anything because he'll burn my sh__!' That's crude but it is the bottom line, we put up with it to survive and protect our property.

Narcissists manipulate, throw unreasonable and frightening tantrums, lie, and cheat (and usually this is how they treat those they claim to love) to get the things most of us would just ask for. 

They don't make any sense and they frighten us. It is easier to be angry at ourselve or those others who innocently stand by because it is safer than showing anger toward such a creature that makes no sense and we have no idea how they will react.

Let's focus on putting the blame where it is due.


At 11:05 PM, Anonymous said... Thank you for all the comments on bystanders. My psycho ex turned so many people against me who I remain disgusted with as they had the audacity to tell me to calm down and not be upset. This sick man tormented me on the Internet for months and got a large group of people to help him. Never trust anyone who tells you not to be angry. You have a right to your anger.

Source

APOLOGY? NOT!

FROM: YWL
 TO: Elizabeth_Green@###.com,
Barbara [lewd misspelling of my last name]@###.net  

DATE: 3/26/2004

I am writing down every day. I see the pain I cased every second of very day. my wife crying (sometimes she throws up) every day and ail cause of me. My kids having no interpersonal relationships because I have been selfish ant too lazy to give them the attention thy deserve. I have a friend my [clergyman] who I made feel so uncomfortable by mixing him up in all this Even quitting the #### was selfish. . 

And I am also profoundly sorry for the pain that I have cased to you both. Every Day I pray to God to relive your pain and that of my family. and then I pray that he bring me closer to [Him] in mind and spirit. so I can change the kind of horrible person I have been.  

Babrara you are right about those 12 steps but they take time...the first one was discussing it all and that goes way beyond my time on line it goes to the way I relate to my family help my kids,. 

My rabbi says to do true teshuva, I have to change, and I am working on int,,,
it is a lng drawn out process.,.  

I got rid of aol adn yahoo and only have the original MSN I dont go ton here, I was advised to no longer put my self in oppottunities where I have to be strong at least untill I have shanged form the creep I was, .

Someday with God’s help I may be a decent human being again.. 

Am truely sorry for the pain I caused and all I can say is that ai sm trying to make that person go away Ihis is from the heart, wheater u believe or not.  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  

Isn't YWL's 'apology' above a perfect example of this?:

 

How NOT to Apologize when you have Seriously Fucked Up.

1.) Apologize in email. Hey, why should you actually have to FACE the person you harmed and DEAL with the real consequences of your actions - like the fact that they might still be hurt and upset? It's so much easier to do it from a distance - that way you can go around telling everyone how you made all this EFFORT to rectify things. If questioned on this, you can fall back on your old excuses about how the other person is just too scary to face in person. (People you have betrayed aren't usually very compliant). Call them scorned, a stalker or obsessed. Say it will hurt your other friends or family. Ignore the fact that this avoidance is completely contradicting any statements you might make about "taking responsibility" for your behavior (see below).  

2.) Make sure the "confession", er, apology comes MONTHS or years after the incident. It's just too much work to actually own up immediately afterwards. Let's face it, you're not after any real resolution, and you are not offering any kind of restitution - you are looking to assuage your guilty conscience and buy absolution, and, if you play your cards right, you can get attention for your act of "bravery" in coming forward. If it's absolution you are looking for, why not join the Catholic church instead?

"Powerful and sneaky people use apologies as end runs around repentance. They betray a trust; and, when they have been found out, they say they are sorry for "mistakes in judgement". They smile through their oily apologies when their crime calls for quakes of repentance. They get by only because we have lost our sense of the difference between repentance for wrong and apologies for bungling.... We should not let each other get away with it. A deep and unfair hurt is more than a mere faux pas. We cannot put up with everything from everyone; some things are intolerable. When someone hurts us deeply and unfairly [deliberately], an apology will not do the job; it only trivializes a wrong that should not be trifled with." -- Lewis B. Smedes, "Forgive and Forget"

3.) Use generic sweeping statements, so that you don't have to own up to, or deal with any specifics. This is a great way to avoid any REAL acknowledgement for the stunts you have pulled, while giving the appearance of sincerity. As Dr. Phil (C. McGraw) says:

"Acknowledgement is a no-kidding, unvarnished, bottom-line, truthful confrontation with yourself about what you are doing or not doing, or what you are putting up with in your life that is destructive. It's not some pious, phoney-baloney, half-hearted rendition of what you think they want to hear. Nor is it a watered-down, politically correct 'confession' that you think will buy you closure at the expense of truth. I mean brutal reality: slapping yourself in the face and admitting what you are doing to screw up your life. This also means admitting that you are getting payoffs for what you're doing, however sick or subtle those payoffs are."

And God knows, real acknowledgement and acceptance of responsibility is not what you were after or you wouldn't have apologized in email in the first place.  

YWL are you BUTTHURT?

4.) Try to evoke sympathy for yourself as part of the apology. Use worn-out lines like "It may not mean much to you now...". Thank the person for their past "support" of you in your (largely self-inflicted) trials and tribulations as a not-so-subtle reminder of how "rough" things have been for you and your other friends/ family. You can also use this as a way to look magnanamous and introspective while avoiding taking any real action.  

Whine about how you are finally working on your "issues" (never mind that you have been saying the same thing for years), as if that is supposed to mean something real. Avoid any discussion about what you are doing *specifically* to work on those issues. After all, (despite your previous litany of lies) the person you are apologizing to should trust that you really mean what you say this time, right?  

Talk about how you are finally accepting responsibility for the consequences of your behavior, and then avoid making any effort to talk to the other person face to face. Talk about how you miss the fun you had with the other person (carefully avoiding any mention of the fun you had at that person's expense at the same time). 

See if there is still a chain left to be yanked. Remember, this is all about assuaging your conscience and repairing your damaged image - not about doing real work or genuine caring for the other person, but nobody else needs to know that. With a little careful manipulation, you can use this apology to get sympathy and attention from other people as well.  

5.) Don't give any reasons about why you have suddenly decided to extend this tremendous effort (writing an email) after so much time has passed. It is equally important that you avoid replying to any questions they might ask about specifics. Remember, this isn't really about making amends, it's about making yourself feel better.  

6.) Expect instant redemption and forgiveness. Remember, no matter what you have done, a few words are supposed to magically wipe away all the pain of the past with no further work required by you. Now that you have made a token gesture, the other person should just "forgive and forget" and "move on" and stop talking about it or asking you for accountability so that you find it easier to sleep at night.  

7.) Get upset when your trite "olive branch" isn't received with warmth and acceptance. Go whining to whomever will listen, about how you made all this *EFFORT*, and how *HARD* it was for you to take that step (what with all your issues, and all), and how it was REJECTED because that awful person actually expected you to DO SOMETHING REAL. After all, you have ISSUES and such, and that means you should be exempted from behaving in a manner congruent to your words, and everyone should coddle you and praise even the smallest effort on your part.  

8.) Take no further action. Use pat phrases like, "I'm doing my best to take responsiblity for the consequences of my behaviour", but don't actually DO anything beyond sending the email. It plays well, and you can always use that "doing my best" as your cop-out when you don't actually follow-through - it wasn't a REAL commitment to change, it was a "best-effort", and your emailed apology was a fine demonstration of how good THAT is.  

I can't stress enough how important it is that you don't reply to any questions the other person might have about your email, especially ones that ask "why now?", "what specifically do you acknowledge was inappropriate?" and "what specifically you are doing to take responsibility?". After all, you don't owe them any explanation. 

Like I said, this isn't about doing anything for *them*, it's all about YOU. After all, once you've made your apology, you can wash your hands of the whole messy affair and wipe your conscience clean without having to dirty yourself with uncomfortable things like integrity, sincerity, action or actually facing the person you harmed.  

SOURCE  

btw -- law enforcement told me he NEVER got rid of any of his instant messengers. Just BLOCKED me. 

It was just a few weeks before he changed his online identity and went right back to it.  

ONE MORE FOR MR. RELIGIOUSLY OBSERVANT 
 The 'sweet person' I thought I knew turned out to be a predator who gets his kicks out of lying, coercing and sexually overpowering women - whether it's by saying 'I love you' indiscriminately or paying for it.  

And the way YWL misspelled my name? sent me back to the emergency room. I was in the hospital a lot then - yet I was accused of 'stalking' him at the same times. Thanks for that. I didn't realize I was that ALL-POWERFUL...

Another one for you - YWL

#ifmywoundswerevisible #yidwithlid #JeffDunetz

THE CHAT YWL WANTS GONE, ERASED, SCRUBBED

Chat that YWL had with my best friend about the situation on March 17, 2004.

(Notice him "trying out new lies" to see what will fly!! He didn't realize she already knew everything and KNEW he was lying to her!)

Shira: hey YWL

YWL: I am an ass

Shira: well, ok

Shira: what makes you say that???

YWL: Its a long story

Shira: do tell

YWL: ok

YWL: I met someone online that I really care about

YWL: it happened after

YWL: well you know when I got upset that night

Shira: right

Shira: hey

Shira: remind me again why you got upset? I was never really clear on that

YWL: because honestly I felt that I was being toyed with.

YWL: anyway..Barabra and I stayed online that night (no we didn't -- I was online with Shira until 3am; YWL blocked me and went back to cybersex with Elizabeth... as I found out)  

YWL: very late

Shira: well you should have said something to us

Shira: we always joke around like that

YWL: I did

YWL: 'to Barbara

YWL: then I went away

Shira: right

YWL: and then when I got back I pulled away from Barbara

YWL: I had to it was making me crazy

Shira: what was making you crazy?

YWL: tension

YWL: we both wanted to sleep with each other but knew it could never happen (WTF? because I told him no way  LOL!)

YWL: we talked about it till like 3 in the morning

YWL: anyway I started talking to someone online and we got very close

YWL: I was even making a buisness trip to go meet her

YWL: Well yesterday her and Barbara talked and now they are both so hurt  (HURT?  Doesn't even start to cover it)

Shira: hang on - but you practically had to be coaxed out with a handful of sugar cubes to go meet Barbara for LUNCH!

YWL: no

YWL: I was supposed to see her next week

Shira: Yes, for the second time in 2 years

YWL: because I could deal with it now

YWL: now you know the reason I felt I couldn't

YWL: and now I have hurt her

YWL: now I have hurt Elizabeth

YWL: and most importantly I have lost her as a friend

YWL: I have been throwing up all morning

Shira: DESTROYED her, YWL. The word is DESTROYED. You have no idea the amount of abuse she puts up with in your name on a daily basis for something she never even did!

YWL: thats why I was reluctent to see her to make it worse and I have anyway

YWL: I cant throw up anymore

Shira: so don't throw up

YWL: Im so nauseous

Shira: so what are you going to do then?

YWL: I dont know

YWL: Shira -- I do love Barbara and dont want to lose her out of my life

YWL: I dont know what to do

YWL: except throw up

Shira: you love her?

YWL: yes but not in a romantic sense anymore. It started going away that night (again... going away... wtf is he TALKING ABOUT! LOL!)

Shira: so you did love her in a romantic sense at one point?

YWL: yes!

Shira: did you ever tell hr?

YWL: no

YWL: not exactly

Shira: well YWL you either tell someone you love them or you don't

YWL: no I didnt

YWL: but eveytime we tried to stop we couldnt

YWL: but I forced myself

Shira: you forced yourself?

Shira: Or you found it easier because you had someone else to play with?

YWL: no because that happened almost two month before I met

Shira: how did you meet her?

YWL: she commented on one off my articles so I sent her a thank you (that's a lie, even Elizabeth says in emails printed on this site I INTRODUCED THEM)

YWL: and she email back

Shira: you send thankyous to everyone who comments?

YWL: yes

YWL: I do  
YWL: read the bottom of one of my articles (great way to collect emails for future victims!)

YWL: it says right there

Shira: k

YWL: He reads and responds to all of his mail, so comment by here

Shira: oh, yeah, of course I remember now

YWL: and then we started emailing

YWL: and iming

YWL: and one thing led to another

Shira: YWL you do know Barbara loved you, and that for her love is something she tries to avoid because it has only ever brought her pain

YWL: until we had a big fight yesterday

YWL: I had a big fight with Elizabeth yesterday because.. she didnt want me to be friends with Barbara (again, I found out this is a massive lie too!  It was the OTHER WAY AROUND)  

YWL: and the rest as we say is history

Shira: how does she know Barbara?

YWL: they met on a newsgroup

Shira: oh, right

YWL: thats how she got to read mystuff

YWL: I asked Barbara if I could call her and she is ignoring me

OT1: well from the sound of it that's not surprising

YWL: she told Elizabeth that I said bad things about her which is not true

Shira: why would she lie?

YWL: I never said anything cause I knew it would hurt her (hurt? wtf? he just wanted to keep using & abusing me as he kept on smearing and lying about me to others.)

YWL: I swear

Shira: BARBARA DOESN'T LIE

YWL: I never discussed Elizabeth with Barbara (admission of lying and also notice how he leaves out that he's 'discussed' - lied about & smeared - me to Elizabeth to keep us from talking and finding out he's a predator who's been using both of us for his sexual fun & games!)

YWL: On my life (which life would that be?  the one your wife knows about or the one you have at Julie's or the one you have online....)

YWL: gtg

 

~~~~~ 

YWL: Barabar wouldnt pic up her mobile

Shira: well I did say to leave a message. She's a busy woman

YWL: I dont know

Shira: you know how it is...kids and all, also she's disabled, remember

YWL: Her vioce mail didnt pic up

YWL: I dont htink

YWL: I ddint hear a beeb

YWL: but Italked anyway

Shira: what'd you say?

YWL: I said that I didnt want to loseher from my life that she was too important and could we talk

Shira: YWL she's been awake for 30 hours

Shira: she's distraught

Shira: YWL

Shira: you've utterly destroyed any trust she had in you

Shira: you've made her feel used

YWL: I know

YWL: but I wasnt

YWL: I swear

Shira: you weren't what?

Shira: using her?

YWL: we were supposed to meet next week

Shira: so?

YWL: I asked her to keep the lucnh

YWL: so w can talk

Shira: you know, if I were her I wouldn't want to talk to you

Shira: I would feel very used and betrayed

YWL: I know

Shira: you were using her, weren't you

YWL: no

YWL: I wasnt

Shira: well; what else do you call cybersex with her, and then another woman, with no intention of anything else?

YWL: I told you how it happedn and they were sepreated by time

YWL: and there was an intention

Shira: what did you intend?

YWL: I had set up a trip to see Elizabeth

Shira: I meant MY friend, Barbara! Not your newest girlfriend, Elizabeth!

YWL: So you arent going to help me?

Shira: Help you!?

You've been lying and toying with Barbara for 2 years with no intention other than to twist her into knots and using her! So, what do you expect after what you've done to my best friend?

You lied about ME, too. 
I tell you what, YWL, you best be sh*tting yourself. You ********. And you call yourself a spiritual man. I think not. All you think about is your **** and I wish you everything you deserve. What a filthy lying s**tbag you are.

 

MORAL EQUIVALENCY - WHAT HAPPENED: THE UNVARNISHED TRUTH

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