REASONS TO GO PUBLIC

I am relieved every day that I went public with Dunetz's abuse, despite my feeling very humiliated at first. Not because I wanted revenge but as someone who believes strongly in God - I believe it is our duty to tell so the other person can get help, try to change (if possible) and help others around them. It is horrifying to realize that you were USED for free sex with lies and then told it's your own darn fault .

But even more horrifying to not speak up about it.

I do not believe in cover ups - which is why I went public with my own behavior in this and what I learned happened from what happened to me. I fully realize now I was mind controlled by someone who was pulling my strings. I learned how this was done, how my own oxytocin and serotonin was used to manipulate me and get me to cross my own boundaries; and then blame ME for it. I no longer accept that blame because it was never mine to start with.  

I have gotten so many private emails from victims about this blog. They said they saw their own Sociopathic or Narcissistic abuser in what I discussed here and then I was able to direct them on to get help, validation and heal from what happened. The other emails are from other bloggers or net users who have had run-ins with Dunetz's ongoing hypocrisy, need for attention, and explosive anger with anyone who doesn't agree with him or cover-up for him, and so on. It has been very validating but sad that he has made no attempt to get help for his pathology and continues to beat down anyone who holds the mirror up to him and his behaviors.  

More on rebuke, telling and the 'right thing to do': 
 ________________________  

I wonder where folks get the idea that Judeo-Christians have to be meek and mild, silently enduring mistreatment, tolerating anything anybody else does, and timidly standing by while abusers trample all over them and other innocent victims. Since when is it a sin to speak out against evil? This is what our abusers want us to believe, and they just love throwing it back in our faces anytime we protest their behavior. They provoke us to anger, they cause untold pain and suffering, and then when we finally speak up, they smugly inform us that we’re not acting like “good Christians or good Jews”. This is hogwash. Abusers would just love for us to back off and be quiet while they do anything they want and get away with murder. Satan will always try to use our righteousness against us, to get us to question our faith, and to separate us from God. This is just another one of his tricks. 

What kind of awesome, wonderful, All-Good God would our Father be if he actually wanted us to allow wickedness to operate unchecked in our families and our lives? This concept is preposterous, and contradicts the perfect goodness of the Lord. Our God is All-Good, and the devil is all-bad. They are diametrically opposed for all eternity. God instructs his saints to take a stand against evil and fight the good fight, not to keep silent and hide in the closet. It is God’s plan that good will triumph over evil. We are the Army of God. We must put on the full armor of God and stand against Satan and his army. That is our assignment, and our destiny as a child of God.

When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul....Ezekiel 33: 8-9 KJV

Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own conceit....Proverbs 26:5 KJV

 

It is truly a wonder to behold the amount of time, energy, and creativity that abusers and their Silent Partners (spouses, family members, new partners) will put into inventing an infinite variety of lame excuses to justify why they should be allowed to continue hurting others. How much easier and more constructive it would be to just re-direct and devote all of that effort into simply changing their behavior. But They Don't Want To. So, whether confronting your abuser, or reading about all of his ridiculous excuses, keep in mind that all you're really asking of his, and all he really has to do, is JUST STOP IT. Here are the reactions we ourselves experienced when we began to set limits on our controlling or abusive relatives, as well as reactions other sisters have reported.

• I HAVE NO IDEA WHY YOU'RE MAD AT ME
• DENIAL
• INAPPROPRIATE AND JUVENILE DISPLAYS OF ANGER- GRITTING TEETH, SCREAMING, SPEEDING UP THE CAR, NAME CALLING, HANGING UP THE PHONE, PUTTING THE PHONE DOWN AND WALKING AWAY WHILE YOU'RE STILL ON THE LINE AND THEN PUTTING IT ON THE HOOK, BLOCKING YOU ONLINE, or SEVERAL MINUTES LATER, MIMICKING, IMITATING, OR MAKING FUN OF YOU WHEN YOU COMPLAIN OR CONFRONT HIM, ETC.
• ACCUSING YOU OF TRYING TO START AN ARGUMENT, YELLING AT HIM, SCREAMING OR SCREECHING AT HIM, OR DELIBERATELY TRYING TO UPSET HIM.
• BECOMING VINDICTIVE OR VAGUELY THREATENING-"YOU'D BETTER BE SORRY FOR WHAT YOU SAID", AS IF YOU HAD NO RIGHT TO CONFRONT HIM. CRYING OR LAYING ON A GUILT TRIP-"I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU WOULD SAY SUCH A THING TO ME", "YOU DON'T LOVE ME", "HOW CAN YOU BE SO MEAN TO YOUR OWN MOTHER/FATHER/HUSBAND/WIFE/FRIEND?"
• 'I CAN'T CONTROL MYSELF', 'THAT'S JUST THE WAY I AM', 'IT'S SUBCONSCIOUS', 'YOU KNOW I DON'T MEAN IT', 'I HAVE TROUBLE EXPRESSING MYSELF' AND VARIOUS OTHER MENTAL PROBLEMS
• YOU MISUNDERSTOOD ME/ YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT/ YOU TOOK IT THE WRONG WAY
• REFUSING TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY RESTITUTION, AND PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.'
• HE'S OLD AND NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS BEHAVIOR
• BLAMING YOU
• BLAMING SOMEONE ELSE
• 'I DID IT FOR YOUR OWN GOOD'
• 'WE WERE BOTH WRONG' OR 'WE BOTH HURT EACH OTHER' WHEN IN REALITY THE VICTIM DID NOTHING WRONG AT ALL.
• TRIANGULATION
• SARCASM
• 'I SAID I WAS SORRY' WITH NO CHANGE IN BEHAVIOR OR ACCOUNTABILITY TO YOU
• TELLING YOU THAT YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HE'S BEEN GOING THROUGH OR WHAT'S GOING ON IN HIS LIFE, AS IF THAT JUSTIFIES HIM ABUSING YOU
• TELLING YOU HE HAS REPENTED TO GOD FOR WHAT HE DID TO YOU, SO HIS CONSCIENCE IS NOW CLEAR
• TELLING YOU SHE HAS REPENTED TO GOD SO HE DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE ANY AMENDS TO YOU
• TELLING YOU GOD FORGAVE HIM AND HE DOESN'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN HIMSELF TO YOU OR RELIVE THE PAST
• TELLING YOU GOD FORGIVES HIM WHETHER YOU DO OR NOT.
• TELLING YOU GOD FORGIVES HIM SO YOU HAVE TO, AS WELL.
• TELLING YOU NOT TO 'JUDGE' HIM WHEN YOU ARE CONFRONTING HIM.
• TRYING TO MAKE YOU FEEL GUILTY
• 'AFTER ALL I'VE DONE FOR YOU'
• 'YOU'RE TOO SENSITIVE'
• 'YOU TAKE EVERYTHING THE WRONG WAY'
• REFUSING TO HEAR YOU OUT 'I'M LEAVING IF YOU CONTINUE TO SPEAK TO ME LIKE THIS'
• TURNING IT AROUND
• 'I DID THE BEST I COULD'
• 'YOU'RE THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM'
• TELLING YOU 'OTHER PEOPLE THINK YOU'RE THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM'
• TELLING YOU YOU'RE THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH HIM; EVERYBODY ELSE LOVES HIM!
• 'YOU'RE ALWAYS COMPLAINING'
• 'NOTHING I DO IS EVER GOOD ENOUGH'
• DISOWNING YOU, 'I HAVE NO DAUGHTER!' "YOU'RE NOT MY FRIEND""I'M LEAVING YOU"
• 'YOU DESERVED IT!', 'YOU PLAYED MY GAME' OR 'YOU WERE ASKING FOR IT'
• ESCALATING THE ABUSE NOW THAT HE KNOWS IT'S GETTING TO YOU
• 'LET'S KEEP THIS BETWEEN US' , 'DON'T TELL ________'
• PRETENDING TO LOSE THEIR PATIENCE WITH YOUR COMPLAINTS-'JUST FORGET IT!' 'GET OVER IT!'
• MINIMIZING THE OFFENSE, TELLING YOU YOU'RE MAKING A BIG DEAL OUT OF IT, OR MAKING A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLEHILL

from: http://www.luke173ministries.org

LASHON HARA FROM YIDWITHLID

 "When caught in a lie or challenged with the truth, they are seldom perplexed or embarrassed -- they simply change their stories or attempt to rework the facts so that they appear to be consistent with the lie." - Robert Hare, PhD

All of the smearing, lying, revisionist history, blaming me, attacks and blatant refusal "to listen, bitch" have done nothing but assured me I am fine leaving this verifiable information out there. I admit I made some mistakes. 

I decry his actions & words against me. None of it has threatened or even upset me in anyway. 

Looking at dunetz'old website, he admitted he left a "message" there for me.

My answer to that message is THIS.

I told the police, I told his wife. PERIOD. THAT'S ALL. Everything is ON THIS WEBSITE. ALL THE INFORMATION. For the whole world to see what a naive person I was for caring about Dunetz's and his family's safety & well-being.

So let's see some of this self-reported ethical, moral, religious & observant man's postings on the web (verified by web site owners to my legal aide) or the postings of his friends and proxies about yours truly. Some because of this very site. 

(edited to protect Dunetz family and mine)

Slander? You decide:

From his site (since removed from the web, but all legal entities concerned have verification & screen shots) to enflame others about me and this very blog:

A Public Record of How She continues to defame as she follows me all over the Net, Uses the Same Aggrigaters, Joins the Same Blog Rolls, Posts to the Same Carnivals etc. If this site is missing it Just means She stopped

Follow him "all over the net"?

Defame? Why doesn't he sue me if I have "defamed" him?? If he has evidence - why doesn't he? And defaming implies lying.  This site has all the proof I could publish that I'm not.

Same Aggregators? - well, yes - ONE of the many I am on he is on too

Same Blog Rolls? - well, yes - a couple he's on I am on too... oh btw - I was INVITED to some of those BlogRolls 

Same Carnivals? Well, yes - ONE that I can think of...

Um... wow! You mean he and I are on the SAME WORLD WIDE WEB?!?! Golly gee whiz!! 

 Does that mean I am a stalker?? ROFL... I know the NYPD Computer Crimes Unit has him on their WatchList still... are they stalkers? 

I can think of a few other bloggers that have a LOT MORE in common with him & his areas of interest than I do!!Hey, YWL - Wanna Join some of the "Mommy Bloggers" and "Disability Blogs" I belong to? ;)

I stopped? Stopped what? TELLING THE TRUTH??

~~~~~~~~~~

HERE'S JUST ONE OF HIS POSTS ABOUT ME:

She is divorced several times so goes by her maiden name of xxxxx. She lives in xxxxx She is 55 years OLD. And I mean OLD. This woman posts inoccent people on sites as this one. She claims to be a religious jew. She should be shot for the filth she says about people she has never met and never will. She tells horrid lies about them. She has posted at least two of her victims on this site.

This woman claims YWL hurt her. Well...guess what Babs! You played his game with him. YOU had phone sex with ME. YOU! You whored yourself out on the phone. Yep! Your a whore. You blame YWL. 

 

 

(1. I have never divorced, I've been estranged many years

 2. Innocent? LOL

3. "should be shot" Isn't that a death threat?)

4. Its You're

5.Im old.  Got a mirror, Jeff>

You post shit all over the net about this wonderful man who helps many, many people. All you do is try to pass the blame. You have made yourself look like the scum bag you really are. (Wonderful man???)

You've done this to women too. Women you don't know. Women who work hard and raise wonderful kids. You have tried to disgrace them. It didn't work. Your so fucking stupid that you didn't realize that the people who know these kind women know you have lied. (Really? like who?  On this very site I posted who did what.  Get a clue! ...and 'wonderful' - pardon my pukin!!!)

YOU ARE A FUCKING C*NT. A FUCKING LIER. It's come back to bite you in your smelly ass. Your name is all over the net on sites like this. You won't learn. Maybe this will help you to see the light. You owe alot of people an apology. Especially God. How the fuck do you sleep at night? Your a whore who lies. Your a mouthy bitch. 

 

(he really is a "wonderful" man isnt he ? he doesn't like anyone who tells the truth much) 

I know where you live and I know your number. Your e-mail is XXXXXXXXXX. Watch out babs. I'm out to get you. Your fucked now! I hate the thought of you. 

God won't forgive you for your actions. I'm e-mailing your rabbi, XXX and many more that think they know you. Yes, I am. Your done. Nodda. Good by bitch!

(Again - threats???

Good by(sic)?  Death threat?

I thought YWL was above all that)

Age: 55 Race: Not Entered Height: Not Entered Weight: Not Entered Zodiac: Not Entered Posted by Anonymous (yeah - that's him)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(update -- a friend sent me an email with this lie-laced comment by YWL on July 27, 2008) another post he made about me (I'm assuming this is the BS he told his wife):

You were an old girlfriend of YWL from an upstate NY college. You used the internet to track him down after 30 years, which wasn't too hard because he's a published writer (braggart)

 You had cyber-sex with him and then got him to agree to meet up with you.

When he did meet up with you, to his horror, he saw that his ex-girlfriend from college had ballooned into a 275 lb fat pig with poor hygiene and he didn't want to bang you. He politely excused himself by saying he couldn't do this to his wife.

You then began stalking him and his family, driving by his house, sending letters to his wife, his parents, his in-laws, his rabbi, the police, anyone with whom you thought you could slander his good name. His poor wife was left with no choice but to report you to the police after you threatened to harm her children

Sound familiar porkchop?

Police found that Dunetz told embellished lies in fear that his wife would catch on to his REAL life 

• (No HE tracked me down - I have the certified proof from Classmates. com.  Do you?
• We NEVER dated
• I'm a published writer too.  He's mostly SELF-PUBLISHED  He has to throw that in  the self promotion never ends'
• poor hygiene? LOL projection!!  I wasn't the one who sat at that lunch picking my teeth with a business card.  GROSS!
• He never excused anything.  
• Stalking?  I don't think so. Not when I was too sick to drive, in the hospital and had a Restraining Order on HIM.
• Sending letters to his parents, in-laws, anyone.....  ON THIS VERY SITE I POSTED THE PROOF THAT I HAD ZERO TO DO WITH THAT)
• Threatened to harm children? No but I do have verified proof filed with police he threatened mine) Project much?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

- updated February 2008

Dunetz posted a fake profile on me on MySpace. Used my old profile picture from StumbleUpon; which he copied. He entitled the MySpace page "I am a Physcotic Internet Harrasser."

He included my ex-husband's old phone number as my own (hoping to get me in more trouble with my ex; who knows all about him now), my home phone number and address. Said I like sex and phone sex and to give me a call. Pathetic... 

The misspellings and bad grammar were DEAD GIVEAWAYS. Nevertheless, MySpace admin removed it and sent the IP from which it was posted and copies to myself, my attorney, NYC Computer Crimes and Dunetz's county Computer Crimes office in Yaphank, NY. 

They were also going to contact his employer about this as well.  

Mr Dunetz has directly violated a legally served CEASE & DESIST. 

It is sad that these crimes have to go through a strict protocol to be prosecuted - often taking years - but the wheels are in motion.

~~~~~

- updated July 2008 from me

ANYONE who hears anything from Dunetz 

or his family, friends or proxies about me similar to the above? Please contact me immediately as there are police reports on this already, a Cease & Desist in place and legal action is ongoing.

#ifmywoundswerevisible

#jeffdunetz



anonymous@bo.net  2009-04-05
 You know, these attacks are ridiculous when you really look at them..."he didn't want to bang you...he excused himself by saying he couldn't do this to his wife.."   So..apparently this long suffering guy would have done whatever he wanted under other circumstances?? Wow, he's really the poor victim, isn't he? What a tool.


8675309@att.net 09-05-24 23:04:59 
Jeff Dunetz you are a disgrace to your community and to your family and friends. I hope you have a difficult time ever looking someone in the eye again and that you will know that people will look at you with disgust. They will know that you are a liar and that you will go to your grave knowing that you intentionally caused someone physical, emotional, spiritual and financial pain


billme@optonline.net 2008-07-20 12:27:03  
Not like he's so svelte or anything to write home about. He should check a mirror before insulting someone else. Especially such a wonderful caring person like you who helps so many people all the time.  Did he carry childen? Have multiple surgeries ? 


 melli@comcast.com 2010-03-19 08:41:44  
There is a bible story that exemplifies what Barbara has done here. She is being a GOOD SAMARITAN, helping TOTAL STRANGERS that she found wounded and bleeding on the side of the road (the internet in this case), for FREE and for no reason other than it is the right thing to do. 

Dunetz the Narc reminds me of the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. Barbara is not a two-faced back stabber, nor a player of women's minds / head games, like Dunetz has PROVEN HIMSELF TO BE. 

Thank you Barbara for all you do to help people, unselfishly, and with the best of intentions. Turning your pain into other peoples gain. God bless you Barbara.

YIDWITHLID'S 'TOOLS'

The narcissist (or sociopath) uses five main tools. These are gifts, affection, withdrawal, threats and violence and in exactly this order.  

1. Gifts: Gifts can be used in two ways. They can either be a symbol of submission or a symbol of demand. Free people generally do not give gifts because they have what they want and do not want to submit nor demand. The communication between the victim and the narcissist is based upon gifts. The narcissist gives gifts in order to make the victim depended. The victim in return accepts these gifts and returns far greater gifts in order to accept this submission. The altruist on the other hand simply helps but does not give gifts either. Sometimes these "gifts" can be flattery, good words, support and yes ... "love." (faked of course)

2. Affection: The narcissist very early on claims soulmate-ship, special connection, ultimate love. Or he makes the victim believe these things without outright declaration. Everything seems incredible and unbelievable - a dream come true. Free people might show each other affection but generally feel comfortable with themselves. They might enjoy the company of someone but will stay focused on their own interests. The victim seems needy due to some childhood, current or past trauma(s). The narcissist is not needy in terms of affection but need for admiration within the group of chosen victims (his partner/spouse, family members, "friends", co-workers, VICTIMS) where the narcissist keeps his or her spider-web. However, the narcissist gives this affection in order to draw the victim into this spider web. This is a difficult time for the narcissist because the narcissist cannot be truly intimate with anyone. Ever. Hence, intimacy is replaced by sex.  

3. Withdrawal: Once the victim's dependency is re-directed onto the narcissist, the narcissist begins to withdraw. Step by step the supposed closeness is disappearing. The victim experiences this as a great loss and the narcissist finds him or herself on a high. The narcissist thinks something like: "I on't have to give gifts, I don't have to show affection, and yet I am being admired."

4. Threats: The victim who remains needy is in shock that no affection is shown to him or her by the narcissist and starts to withdraw him- or herself. Now the narcissist starts to panic because the admiration seems to be diminishing and (s)he starts to threaten the victim. These threats are of the kind: "You are a liar. You said you loved me but now you obviously don't" or "if you loved me you'd believe me" or "you don't understand how bad I feel that you have withdrawn" or "if you loved me you would (something far outside the victim's comfort zone; usually sexually) Now, the narcissist resorts back to the first tools including gifts and sex and threatens that they will be withheld. Strangely enough, this has already happened but the narcissist will try to convince the victim that all is as it always used to be. In this sense these threats are imaginary only.  

5. Violence: At one point the narcissist will fail to convince the victim any longer by means of persuasion, brainwashing and changed perception. Now the narcissist will resort to violence. This is the stage when abuse in the common sense takes place. This includes blocking out the victim, seducing the victim's friends, lying about the victim, rude or sarcastic comments to the victim, demanding abusive (things the victim would not normally do) sexual favors from the victim, bad mouthing, threatening them or their families or friends, hacking their email, hacking any websites, stalking them online, posting slander about them online and using the police with selective information provided by the narcissist.  

by Dr. Ludger Hofmann-Engl 

COMMENTS

 http://masksofsanity.blogspot.com 

This is what makes me so angry. The psychopath gives you what you want ie: "Honeymoon period" for a short while then treats you like dirt once he is done "hoovering information" from you . Then the abuse rapidly climbs.

DOES HE FIT THE CHECKLIST ON PREDATORS?

If I am honest with myself, I must admit that yes --- YWL is severely disordered pathological.
 

Characteristics of a Pathological/Abuser

• superficial charm
• self-centered
• prone to boredom
• deceptive behavior & lying
• conning & manipulative
• little remorse or guilt
• shallow emotional response
• callous lack of empathy
• living off others
• predatory
• poor self-control
• sexually promiscuous
• early behavioral problems
• impulsive lifestyle
• irresponsible behavior
• blaming you for their actions
• truly believes his own lies
• will turn his friends on you
• enlists others to harass you

SOURCE

 I have never harrassed Jeff. I did what I did to help his wife, his family and HIM. No matter what he thinks or tells others -- I am right with myself about what I did. One day I hope, he will reopen the line of communication with me in an HONEST way. I will write CHECK if Mr. Dunetz fits this checklist So let's see if he fits, shall we?

 

 

• The other type of emotionally unavailable man is unavailable due to his relationship (or relationships) with another woman (or women). These guys are never really committed to a woman. They don't see any relationship as necessarily permanent, including marriage - even if they give lip service to being "deeply committed" to the woman they are with at the moment. CHECK!  
• In truth, however, they don't truly value their intimate relationships or take them seriously, because they are merely "playing," even though engagement or marriage hardly seems like something to "play" at. They don't take their relationships seriously because on some level - even if subconciously - they know they can find someone else who will get involved with them if their current affair ends. What else would cause someone to repeatedly play his future like a crapshoot without really fearing the outcome? CHECK! ...
• It is probably because women keep attempting to get close to him that causes him to keep moving from partner to partner or to keep adding partners. He is uninterested in experiencing or is unable to experience deep feelings of connection with anyone. CHECK! (YWL told me in April 2002 that he "can't feel." This changed once he decided to move in on me to "I can't do sex without an emotional connection." You pick the true statement.) ...
• What is dangerous about emotionally unavailable men is that they are not authentically emotionally responsive. They are emotionally avoidant. CHECK! ...Some of these men may have a sexual addiction that fuels their pursuit of rapidly revolving, superficial relationships. Perhaps his sexual addiction takes the form of chronic and compulsive pornography use, a pattern that will diminish a man's normal human responsiveness. CHECK! ...
• be aware that [this type of man] will paint himself as a devoted father and husband or as an upstanding citizen of his community. Never discount the possibility that your emotionally unavailable man may have multiple hidden lives (always the case if he's engaging in clandestine extramarital affairs) as well as being an emotional predator. For example: emotional unavailability, plus life he keeps hidden from you, his wife or his girlfriend, plus the keen sixth sense of an emotional predator, plus a sexual addiction - help these pathological men thrive at attracting serial superficial relationships. CHECK! CHECK! 
• If he is a sexual addict as well he will have a hidden life of endless porn watching, masturbation, voyeurism, and even using prostitutes. Many times these men will cover their perversions with heavy involvement in community politics, their church or synagogue or doing volunteer work. And they will make sure this cover is very visible so no one suspects. CHECK!!  
• Sexually addicted predators will not stop at you, they will go after your friends as well. They think nothing of telling your friend that you mean nothing to them and that you are possibly "imagining" the relationship. They will tell their wives the same things about you or any other woman they know insisting "she's jealous of us and is obsessed with me." They are masterful jugglers of time and people. CHECK! ...
• a woman's availability itself is a deciding factor... "any port in a storm" will provide adequate distraction from the reality of his life. CHECK!! (the fact he had so much time on his hands due to unemployment... do the math. If he'd really had such fond memories of me? He would have looked me up YEARS before. All he saw was my name and that 'hey, maybe she'll fuck me for free since I'm unemployed right now' light went off in his head.)  
• In addition to finding women who are available, these men have to locate women who are willing to violate their own emotional, sexual and ethical standards... So his challenge is to find women who, with a little encouragement will deny their values and boundaries and partake. CHECK! (once YWL knew how I'd felt about him all that time, he pushed for about 5-6 weeks (back & forth) ... and threw on the love bombing and NLP - I struggled but I simply couldn't withstand the onslaught in my state of mind. My trauma counselors told me this! In August 2004 they had to "deprogram" me!)  
• Womanizers also look for women who will believe their stories about their home life. Very few of them tell women how happy they are at home, how wonderful their wife is, and how they just really want to have extramarital sex with no strings attached. No, that usually isn't the story line. The story line goes: "No one has ever really loved me, and certainly not my wife. She nags... doesn't appreciate me... hates sex..." CHECK!!!  
• Women take this hook too often. ...they will be able to make him "finally feel loved... listened to... appreciated." His need is not "once and for all to be loved" as much as it is to get laid, be amused and be distracted. CHECK!  
• A womanizer may be highly verbal about his relationships. He may share personal information in such a way that women mistake his sharing for emotional intimacy... He knows well enough that women are empathic to tales of empty and sad relationships... CHECK! (does regaling me with stories of his sexual romps with his ex-fiance and even telling me about he and his wife having sex count? And because he could have CARED LESS about me - he took real pleasure in 'twisting the knife' into me since he knew he'd hooked me and then told me "I decided. We aren't going to have sex." Also - No boundaries, my freeze response and making me feel like crap - he hit the trifecta. He'd never EVER given me a chance at a real friendship!)  
• Such men are successful when they find women who are unhappy in their own relationships. CHECK!!!!!!!!!  
• An interesting point is that almost every woman who told us her story about getting involved with an emotionally unavailable man said it happened at a time when her self-esteem was low. [She] was coming out of a relationship situation that had damaged her self-esteem (such as being abused or even going through a divorce). Women accept far more during times of low self-esteem than they do when their self-esteem is sound. A belief that she doesn't deserve a whole, satisfying and healthy relationship is a reflection of how low her self-esteem is. If a man gives a woman who suffers with low-self esteem a little attention... then too often she willingly falls [for him]. CHECK!! (My counselors all told me this same thing! But wait!, Jeff said I "went into this with my eyes open" .. ssshhhhuuurrrreee )

'I am now sorry for the pain I caused his family. Even if his wife never found out, I hurt her... which I had no business [doing]." - Ali CHECK

"These men aren't looking for love; they are looking for a distraction from what THEY really are." - Jamie CHECK!

~~~  

• The emotional predator is as bad as it gets. He qualifies as the pinnacle of poisonous and pathological... He could, in fact, be called the "emotional psychic." That's because it's his ability to intuit and sense a woman's emotional vulnerabilities that places her at risk. Webster's defines predatory as "having a disposition to injure or exploit others for one's own gain; it defines predator as "one that preys, destroys or devours." That's a good summation of this man. Who but the most pathological among us would set out to exploit, prey on, destroy or devour? CHECK!! 
• He will hone in on your vulnerabilities and read you. If he likes what he reads, he will follow up by luring you into his scary and dangerous life. CHECK!  
• Predators have a natural ability for reading women who are lonely, bored, needy by nature, emotionally wounded or vulnerable. The predator also has his antennae up for women who... have unfulfilled needs in their lives. ...he figures out how he can squeeze into the vacant space in your life and what you need to hear in order to allow this to happen. CHECK! (he was never interested in me or my life. He was profiling me. He could have cared LESS!) ...
• [they] "sense" which woman will make the best target for them. They don't know why they have this gift or how they acquired it. ...they have been working women over since childhood. A predator's intuitive sixth sense is untaught. ...an adult's skills can't compete with his abilities to scam, con and conquer. CHECK! (bet I was a big ego boost too - and he laughed his ass off every time he left me dangling) ...
• emotional predators also fall into the mentally-ill category, usually under the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder. Most also have hidden lives. When you couple a predator's natural instincts with a lifetime of skills honed by successfully conning, exploiting and injuring women, you have a man who is nothing short of extraordinarily smooth and capable of horrific dangerousness. CHECK  
• Predators' motives vary. But you can be sure a predator wants something from you. That is the entire reason for the relationship. ...There is something in you that he wants. Maybe "all" he wants is your utter adoration or for you to exalt his ego. ...Maybe wants what you can provide to help establish his image so he will marry you ('good family man'). Or maybe ...he's most interested in the pursuit and conquest of a woman... If he is a sexual predator, you are a target, whether it be for consensual sex or rape - depending on whichever way it plays out or whatever mood he is in. CHECK!( Heavy on the consensual for him... but he won't admit he used emotional coercion and lies to accomplish one thing = emotional rape. Heaven forbid YWL be accused of wrongdoing... ohhhh noooo)  
• A predator does not "need" the relationship. Early on... the predator is deliberately romantic. Predators are shifting chameleons who can be all things to all women. Predators are smooth as silk. ...predators are listeners who will give up very little information until they are sure it will align with your history. ...His selection is based on his need and your vulnerability. He knows it's a matter of matching need with need. The more he knows about your needs, the better he can meet them. CHECK! (he didn't even like me, in fact he hates me and ALWAYS HAS. What I don't get is when he had money to go back to the hookers and then Elizabeth... WHY all the times I tried to pull away or leave the relationship did he reel me back in? The only explanation could be that he liked raping my mind and toying with my emotions to amuse himself. If YWL meant what he left on my answering machine "I want to see you & talk to you. I don't want to lose you out of my life. You mean too much to me" - no matter what he would have done something to see me and talk to me. Even now. Yet he'd rather smear and block me. BTW, I was never 'IN' his life -- despite my repeated efforts to MAKE THE FRIENDSHIP WORK and get away from his sex-obession when he chatted with me!)  
• He has a nose for vulnerability, so women who have unmet needs "smell" especially good to him. He seeks women who need men who can "sense and know" them on almost a spiritual level. Since he is good at this, he will appear to know you well - and quickly. CHECK! (and the fact we knew each other from earlier in our lives & were intimate? What a coup!)  
• They like women who had absent fathers, angry mothers or neglectful and abusive husbands. Knowing that many women are trained to believe that people are basically good at heart, predators will present themselves as men of honor and virtue.... But because he is a chameleon, he will listen closely to see if you also need a mentor, an adviser on some topic, a spiritual leader, or a male friend. CHECK!!!  
• During counseling sessions I've had with men who are emotional predators, some have verbalized their targets. One said, "I look for naive women. I like a certain vulnerability to her - that she trusts humanity without asking for proof. Maybe she's been hurt a lot so there's a "woundedness" to her. That vulnerability makes them believe you, because they need to believe you." CHECK.  
• Another said, "I like the mentally weak - women who have been pounded down by men and those with childhoods that weren't so good. They are particularly easy." CHECK.  
• It is important to understand that each predator has developed his own unique style. He has a "type" or two of women he prefers because with those types he has mastered the approach, the dating, and the 'end.' He doesn't have to think very hard if he just uses the profile he's had success with. One predator may prefer recently divorced or divorcing women because he succeeds at playing that angle with them. CHECK (most probably) ... 
• these guys can show a woman they definitely "get it." They show you all the attention that the jerks you've been with haven't. They say all the right lines that the men in your past could never verbalize. They are brilliant and insightful about what you need. They seem to know exactly every pain you have suffered. CHECK!  
• With more skill than a carnival psychic, the emotional predator can hone in on your every need, sympathize with you in such a way so that you believe you've met your long lost soulmate and sweep you off your feet... He's... more insightful than a therapist. He "knows" you the way no one else ever has. CHECK! (hell yes)  
• This guy moves FAST. He's got to - before you figure out what his M.O. is. Every woman should be suspect of the relationships that seem to be traveling in the fast lane on the super-highway of emotional intimacy. A predator needs to keep you so euphoric with compliments and lover's talk that you aren't listening, or paying attention. He is dripping with sincerity and clinging to every word you say. A predator wants to consummate the relationship with you right away, because time is against him. CHECK! (YWL wanted me in bed with him almost immediately. Thank God I kept hedging and asking questions and demanding he slow down and be normal with me... even though he didn't. With all the "I couldn't control myself if I saw you," "just talking to you is making me h*rd... I am usually not that sensitive," "you make me feel like Stanley Kowalski" -- what horsesh*t! "I have to f*ck you soon"
  Or what he told Shira "I had to pull away from Barbara, the sexual tension was making me crazy." Really - what tension would THAT be YWL? The fact that my ex-husband found out so it was no longer convenient? Or that you didn't want to help me even though I was getting beat up on a daily basis because of you? Or could it be that I disgusted you so thoroughly and you were just having a big laugh at my profound expense? Or was it even that I was just asking too many pointed questions and you knew I was starting to figure you real motives out?) 
•  To move the relationship along and be indispensable to you, he must act helpful, comforting and generous. Since he is working against the clock, he must find out what you need and then meet that need. CHECK (see above)  
• While listening to you and observing you, he will glean a lot of information about your hobbies, interests, spiritual beliefs and value systems. He is the original identity thief. He uncovers and uses for his own purposes everything he can about what makes you - YOU. He will find you amazing, beautiful, bright and talented - like no one he has EVER met before. He will align how he portrays himself with your needs and also your interests until you feel like you are looking at your twin. CHECK!! ("you were the most talented person I ever knew," "your breasts were always my favorite," "I loved being with you," "you aren't that fat, you are still very very lovely" hahahaha!)  
• Finally, another way predators succeed with women is by preying on their compassion. Once a woman is in the grip of a predator, anything can happen. CHECK!!! (read this site for that one)  
• [Once a woman sees their stories] for the crock they are and bust them for their fake opinions with them, they will try and turn the table and make it seem it was the woman who had emotional problems! CHECK! (read post "he said" on this site. And does blocking me and refusing to speak to me with excuses like "it will hurt my wife" or "talking wouldn't do either of us any good" - um, YWL? LET ME THINK FOR MYSELF. I deserve better and actually, so do you & your family & friends)  

So, how did YWL do on the predator checklist? 100%? Wow!

ONE FOR YOU, YIDWITHLID:

 hotnewskates (IP: 68.199.197.157 , ool-44c7c59d.dyn.optonline.net) E-mail : twisterjoker@gmail.com 
URL : Whois : http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=68.199.197.157
It sort of seems that you have created a system/checklist basically freeing yourself from any wrongdoing in the relationship at any level (I just glanced, but am I wrong in saying that you were the other half of an affair? Is only one person in a relationship responsible for the actions that need two people?) Are you just saying that you are an innocent sheep, never getting your own needs or desires met? Honestly from what you've written, it seems like you got entangled in a relationship that didn't end up as you would of liked, and because you didn't get the desired result, are thus bitter. Unless you are of some superhuman moral absolution, you have to admit that your own personal bias and resentment and residual feelings are intertwined into the overall message of this post. Or maybe I just haven't encountered a psychopath. Or maybe I am one? Or maybe I'm with one? What a scam.

~~~~~~~~  
Looks like Jeff Dunetz(aka hotnewskates above) or one of his sycophants paid me a visit!  LOL 
So I am posting this because it shows so clearly the selective machinations most Pathologicals show when called on their nonsense: 
1. I didn't create that checklist, brainiac Please tell me where you got YOUR medical degree?
2. I never didn't take responsibility at any time. Typical Pathological attempts to pick out one 'sore spot' (not sore at all, LOL) and pick at it. Obviously you can't read... or simply don't want to educate yourself. Amazing what arrogance & stupidity together sounds like!
3. My "needs"? Sounds suspiciously like Jeff... or one of his proxies. I had NO NEEDS when I was first contacted and none of my real needs were met in any way, shape or form. YWL/Jeff never befriended me, never allowed me to meet his family or vice versa, never was honest or real with me in any way and never treated me as a human being with respect, empathy and consideration. So no, none of my needs were met. I was brainwashed to meet HIS needs and his needs only. Nice to feel like an object who has no right to feel used or abused. This was not about my needs in ANY WAY.
4. My understanding and integrating that I was brainwashed, lured & groomed comes from the counseling and help I received at a clinic for people with severe PTSD and at least 3 well-known therapists in Trauma. I suggest you take up the 'accountability' issue with them. Oh and be sure you take your Medical Degree with you when you do.
5. If my 'personal bias' as you call it, includes supporting women through the PTSD and aftermath of relationships with Pathologicals, preventing suicides and educating men & women about pathology and it's effect on all our lives... as well as the 100s of thankful emails I have gotten then I say - gimme' more of THAT kind of bias & scam!
6. Bitter? Nah. No longer naive, no longer trusting, no longer dating and dealing with permanent, diagnosed PTSD? sure. Moving on and using what I have learned to validate, support & inform others? Absolutely!
Isn't that scorned woman, bunny boiler, stalker stuff getting kind of old? I don't have that kind of time to spend on a soulless predator... I'd rather use the knowledge to help others, it's much more gratifying. So go ahead friends, let educate this Cluster B poster... if we can! Or is this merely projection and another Pathological's gaslighting scam?
Most reputable therapists & psychiatrists are stopping that BLAME THE VICTIM mentality now... and the "it takes 2 to tango" baloney... thank GOD it was explained to me and I was shown how I was methodically and diabolically used, manipulated, brainwashed, hypnotized and so on... before you throw accusations get your facts straight. Don't believe me - read some of the other comments here.

Really hurts to find out you're a PREDATOR who PREYS on real human beings, doesn't it. I'd be happy to recommend a place to get help... unless you see nothing wrong with using and abusing people this way. Unless you ARE one and you see nothing wrong with exploiting people like objects, using women for sex objects and having zero empathy for them when you throw them away like used tissues.

cindibear@yahoo.com 98.14.11.174 2009-11-06 21:25:40 2009-11-07 02:25:40 - <![CDATA["The ]]> 1 0 0NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) illusion of superiority is a facet of a generalized disdain for reality. These individuals feel unconstrained by rules, customs, limits, and discipline. Their world is filled with self-fiction in which conflicts are dismissed, failures redeemed, and self-pride is effortlessly maintained. They easily devise plausible reasons to justify self-centered and inconsiderate behavior. Their memories of past relationships are often illusory and changing. If rationalizations and self-deception fail, individuals with NPD are vulnerable to dejection, shame, and a sense of emptiness. Then they have little recourse other than fantasy. They have an uninhibited imagination and engage in self-glorifying fantasies. What is unmanageable through fantasy is repressed and kept from awareness. As they consistently devalue others, they do not question the correctness of their own beliefs; they assume that others are wrong. The characteristic difficulties of individuals with NPD almost all stem from their lack of solid contact with reality. If the false image of self becomes substantive enough, their thinking will become peculiar and deviant. Then their defensive maneuvers become increasingly transparent to others" (Millon & Davis, 1996, pp. 405-423). Sharon C. Ekleberry -- Dual Diagnosis and the Narcissistic Personality Disorder. -

One of two possibilities:
1. The "person" who wrote the commentary is either unaware or ignorant about the impact a pathological can have on a non-pathological and this "person" lacks the necessary knowledge and insight to understand that impact.
2. The "person" who wrote the commentary is a mutant mole, also known as a personality disordered creature and can't stand for the "light" of truth to be revealed. After all, moles scurry underground in the dirt and darkness and are completely blind. The "moles" of either species cause tremendous damage. But the damage caused by the furry kind with huge paws and sunken beady eyes can be easily repaired.
On the other hand, the damage caused by the mutant mole is usually permanent.
Yes, it does take 2 to Tango...but the pathological starts out Tap Dancing and never stops!! The pathological tap-dances around every issue, every feeling, every truth, and everyone!!on.xxx@btinternet.com 78.149.53.104 2009-11-07 18:10:29 2009-11-07 23:10:29 - Do I smell a RAT? Well, from what I read in the post above from "hotnewskates", it sure seems that way... I'm certain that the author is either the said "rat" OR one of his sychophants with that same old, "she asked for it" crap the predators spoon-feed them with.....Blah-di-di-blah-di-blah!!!! If it wasn't so sickening, it would be funny!

Who the hell do you think you are!? All Barbara did was TRUST that piece of crap! And, after she got through the initial painful trauma of the wicked things which were done to her, with what little energy she could muster decided to help other women who have been through something similar to her. Women like me! This lady is at the total opposite end of the moral spectrum to the vile creature who used and manipulated her.

Don't you understand, SHE WAS ABUSED BY HIM TO SUCH A DEGREE SHE NEEDED MEDICAL INTERVENTION!? If you are one of the cyberpath's "sympathisers", maybe you could do us all a favour and keep your pathetic, ignorant opinions to yourself! OR, if you are actually "IT", then you can expect your karma bus to pull up any minute! You know something? You're not fit to fasten her laces! YUK!
tiffanys1184@hotmail.com 76.186.158.243 2009-11-08 15:47:47 2009-11-08 20:47:47 - How transparent skater-dude! Wow, you obviously know NOTHING about the horror of being involved with a pathologically disordered person. Perhaps because you are one yourself?? I find it very interesting how you seem to be personally attacking the blogger's story as if it had something to do with you. Otherwise, why would you be here, with an obvious chip on your shoulder instead of a calm, intellectual debate?
Go back to your victimizing of those who don't know better, poor things that they are

psychopathnextdoor@googlemail.com http://masksofsanity.blogspot.com 84.13.173.244 2009-11-08 15:49:42 2009-11-08 20:49:42 -
This sounds like a typical reaction (email) from somebody who A: has no empathy or B: Doesn't understand what a psychopath is, nor how devastating it is to be in a relationship with one. or C: is one themselves.
The commenter obviously has no idea how manipulative the narcissist/sociopath can be. We -- as the discarded targets of said sociopaths -- do NOT desire a perfect, on cloud 9, flying ponies shitting rainbows relationship, we wanted a relationship that was 2 sided in it's giving/taking capabilities. We wanted and strived to treat the narcissist how we wanted to be treated. We all know a relationship isn't perfect, we all have our own issues and wrongdoings, we admit these, freely. We are not blind , and we all know fully well that the dreamy hollywood love isn't real. We don't have unrealistic expectations! It is give and take , not take take take which is what a narcissist lives by.
The narcissist lives his life using fiction - LIES We as the targets/victims live with reality - TRUTH. And finally, we as the discarded targets of sociopaths spent the entire relationship admitting we were wrong, apologizing, appeasing, giving, loving, pleading, begging and forgiving. Even when we were not the guilty party.
So no one has the right to stand up and point fingers at us accusing us of being unrealistic, guilty and irresponsible.

The Courage of Confrontation and Accountability Contrasted with the Hostility of Accusation and Blame

by Michele Toomey, PhD 
michele@mtoomey.com

A confrontation takes courage for many reasons, not the least of which is the self-revelation it requires. In a confrontation, we make a deliberate decision to reveal in an honest, straight forward way, how something has affected us.

 

We are always vulnerable when we reveal how we have reacted to something that has been said or done to us. Sharing our reflections on what we are thinking and feeling as we ponder our reactions is a very intimate process. It means leaving ourselves unprotected as we tell the person we are confronting how they have hurt, angered, intimidated, insulted, or disappointed us. 

If they cannot hear what we are saying without getting defensive and attacking us, we are vulnerable to their hostile reaction. If, on the other hand, they treat the information we've shared in a respectful way, an exchange can take place and self-revealing by both the confronter and the confronted can lead to greater understanding of each other. Needless to say, we would hope the latter response would occur, but, the risk is there and the uncertainty is another reason why we need courage to confront. The potentially hot situation of confronting another can easily backfire or explode. Both the confronter and the confronted must be willing to reveal and claim why they said and/or did certain things that are hard to claim. Both must be courageous and honest and dare let go of their defensiveness or any other self-protective mechanism as they dare reveal themselves so they can understand and be understood. They must reveal what was going on for them that prompted them to say or do what they did. A confrontation is an encounter that takes place on fair grounds between equals, and it requires that both the confronter and the one being confronted expose what they were thinking and feeling when the exchange took place and be accountable for those thoughts and feelings.  

Accountability is an essential ingredient in a confrontation. It keeps the confrontation honest and fair. To be accountable is to claim one's part and in the claiming to begin to understand what needs to change in order to interact fairly and respectfully. If a confrontation is successful, the honest accountability and the clarity it brings, will move things in such a way that the issue at hand can be dealt with differently. Greater understanding of what's going on for both the confronter and the confronted will lead to greater respect and care for their feelings. This, of course, yields an intimacy that allows relationships to become a special gift to be treasured. 

  Confrontation requires courage but it can yield the very desired results of deep intimacy with true caring and mutual respect. Since a confrontation calls for exposing a deeper level of one's self in an interaction, it addresses what's going on for a person underneath the words being spoken. It is not a conversation about the content of what is being said, but about one's relationship to what is being said. It begins by having the confronter reveal the underlying thoughts and feelings she/he had in response to what was said or done, and then moves to the one being confronted. The one being confronted is then called on to respond on that same level, and reveal what was going on for him/her when the exchange took place. As the conversation goes back and forth on this deeper level, each person continues to claim what was going on for them and be accountable for how they expressed themselves when unspoken thoughts and feelings were being triggered by the exchange. The conversation goes back and forth with revealing, claiming and accountability on each person's part, providing clarity and understanding of what was going on for each person. The confrontation ends with accountability being established for the thoughts and feelings and words and behaviors that contributed to the confusion, hurt, anger or fear experienced by either person. As an outgrowth of the clarity that comes from claiming what was going on underneath the words or the behavior being confronted, a certain intimacy occurs between the persons participating in the confrontation. They have communicated on a deeper level, closer to their core, and they are better known to each other as a result of the confrontation.


Future encounters should reflect what has been understood and learned from the confrontation. There should be accountability marked by mutual respect for what has occurred. This sets the stage for further encounters that are not as potentially stressful or hurtful, and not as dependent on intimidation or blame. Accountability calls for claiming with respect and fair play whatever goes on, went on in the past, or occurs in the future. It does not stop with one confrontation, it only begins there.  

In contrast, an accusation rips away at the other person's layers of protection and attributes bad motives to what lies underneath. The purpose is to blame, judge and punish. It yields defensiveness and guilt, and has neither fairness or respect in it. Instead of an exchange, it is an attack. Battle lines are drawn and casualties occur. Rather than an encounter between equals, it is a power struggle to establish the superiority of the victor and the inferiority of the defeated. Someone wins and someone loses. Righteous indignation rather than respectful exploration characterizes an accusatory attack. Intimacy and clarity are never an outgrowth of such antagonism. In an accusation, attack and blame call forth defensiveness and counter attack. Ridicule, sarcasm and anger are the weapons, and the encounter leaves the embattled participants gloating or guilty. If guilty, then there is shame and punishment to deal with, not accountability and integrity. Communication is not the purpose of accusation and communication does not transpire. Altercation does. It is, therefore, not acceptable to rely on accusation and blame to protect ourselves from feelings of hurt, confusion, fear or anger. 

However, neither is it acceptable to just ignore what we are feeling and then build up resentment and walls. The withdrawal that results from not addressing unresolved feelings is also a hostile act. It is both hostile to the one withdrawing and to the one being withdrawn from, because it closes the door to one's self and to others at a time when conversation to resolve the feelings needs to take place. Intimacy can not occur when unresolved feelings are left unaddressed and a protective distance behind a silent stony wall separates the self from itself and from others. The barrier is not a friendly one. It is meant to keep something and someone out. Feeling shut out and shut off when the integrity of our system calls for being connected and flowing in and out means our system is violated by the withdrawal of communication within ourselves. It also means that the other relevant person who is being shut out is being violated as well. There can be no understanding or intimacy without communication and the alienation that occurs with a "shut out" is uncomfortable or even painful if the person values intimacy. Unfortunately, a withdrawer has had to shut itself down in order to find safety in withdrawal. It may seem to the withdrawers that there is no price to shutting down, but what they will one day discover is that they are no longer able to be present.

That is a painful outcome. They are, therefore,eventually only a shell of themselves, alienated, never intimate with any depth of intensity because they have systematically shut themselves off to their own intensity. The first violation of shutting down, therefore, is to the self who shuts down. The subsequent violation, however, is to the other who desires intimacy with the withdrawn person. Withdrawal is the ultimate weapon. No intimacy can occur as long as the withdrawer stays withdrawn. The only recourse is to withdraw as well. This resolves the issue, but at a great cost, an alienating distance that cannot be bridged by anyone but the one who chose it, leaving others powerless. It is, therefore, in our best interest to learn to confront and to be confronted, and to be accountable and demand accountability. We can then experience intimacy with ourselves and others in a way that fulfills our greatest need, the need for knowing and being known, for caring and being cared for, and for feeling a true sense of belonging and intimacy. Neither accusation or withdrawal will provide this. So once again life takes courage. In this instance, the courage to confront.

http://www.mtoomey.com/courage.html

THE UGLY BYSTANDER

   

by Kathy Krajco
 

I think the misplaced sympathy out there for narcissists comes from people wishing to push unpleasant stuff out of their minds so that they have but selective awareness of an event like narcissistic abuse.

When we say that narcissists lack empathy, we mean exactly that. In plainer language, they are brutal, treating those they abuse subhumanly. Their callousness is something one must see to believe. Often the victim cannot get his or her mind around it and goes into a state of shocked disbelief of their own eyes and ears. When narcissists see that they are drawing blood, they get sadistic. This behavior makes no sense till you remember why narcissists do this. They are stomping you down to elevate themselves. In doing this, they are morally trampling you to have something to thump their chests about and give a Tarzan yell. They get HIGH on treating others like dirt. So, keep a tight grip on that fact: they don't do it because it's evil; they do it because it makes them feel good. They are sick in the head. They have unbearable pain/shame inside that keeps trying to surface to consciousness on them. This pretending to be grand by stomping you is just their way of killing that pain by keeping it repressed. Abuse is an addiction with narcissists. 

The more they degrade you, the bigger dose of this high they get. Which is why they are sadistic. So, here you have them abusing their victim in cold blood sadistically. Then, when the victim complains, they turn around with their little Wouldn't-Hurt-a-Fly mask on for the bystanders, whining about their need to "heal." Yes, THEIR need to heal. Some folks don't know a joke even when it slaps them in the face like that. Right out of the bystander's mind goes what's on the other side of that coin - what that angel-faced narcissist just did to that victim. 

In other words, they take this "Poor-Little-Me" act out of context. More important, the bystanders thus avoid having to know what they know about such phony face changes = that the narcissist is diabolical and laughing up his sleeve. All they let themselves see is whiny angel-face before them right now. Because it's warm and cuddly and doesn't rattle their cage or require them to do anything about anything. Or cross this guy they are suddenly afraid of. Ah, that whiny little angel-face he has, upon whom they misplace their wretched sympathy. Then they go off and correct the VICTIM for wrongdoing. Yes, that's right: some folks don't even know a joke when they tell it. The victim has sinned by feeling angry or wanting a divorce or wanting to retaliate so as to make the abuser stop it. THAT'S the only sin the ugly bystander sees. Nothing the narcissist did gets a peep out of him or her about it.

SOME EXCERPTED COMMENTS:

At 2:59 PM, Anonymous said...

I saw the same thing with my ex. She was very pushy, but if anyone ever pushed back, she became this huge victim. Same dynamic.Here is the thing I finally discovered: With this dynamic, you can never win and this technique keeps them from every growing and moving out of the narcissism. If every time they are challenged on some statement they make, they retreat into victimhood, it means that they are avoiding the substance of the argument. It is a truth avoidance mechanism. They aren't interested in any truth. They are only interested in being heard and and seen and if someone disagrees with them, then wilt into victimhood.As usual, it is always about image.   

At 3:45 PM, Anonymous said...

I've had some of these apologist bystanders in my life, and I have absolutely no use for them. In my opinion, they are the only ones in the room more cowardly than the narcissist.I have come to believe that when they take the narcissist's side because they are afraid of the him, at least half of them are trying to convince themselves that they are righteous, rather than afraid.They take the path of least resistance, and when they are giving you that "You overreacted" crap, they are trying to believe it themselves, so they can push down that voice inside them that says, "You're afraid of the bully, you're just a little coward."And they are little cowards, too, those bystanders. If it isn't your battle, fine, then stay out of it. Otherwise, shut the hell up. Don't try to calm me down or play peacemaker just to hide from your own discomfort.   

At 5:08 PM, Anonymous said...

Two-faced, relentless sadistic abuse and butter-wouldn't-melt con artistry sounds like the N I know. But you can't blame bystanders for not seeing when even the target of abuse is repeatedly taken in by the lies, denials and gaslighting.

At 5:50 PM, Kathy said...

"...you can't blame bystanders for not seeing..."Not seeing what? That he's insincere? I think you can blame them for that. And yes, the victim unsees too. Only because the victim doesn't WANT to see, not because it's hard to see as you imply.The victim has very strong temptation into denial. Much stronger than the byestander. Much better excuse.But even the victim will eventually face facts and tell you that he or she is angry with themselves for refusing to see what was staring them in the face. So where is the byestanders confession to that effect? And the bystander has no excuse for saying, "I'm going to the north pole" and turning to head off south. It's preposterous for their only criticism to be OF THE VICTIM. It's preposterous for their sympathy to be FOR THE VICTIMIZER. And I have too often said how absurd it is to regard feeling as a sin. There is no excuse for anti-logic. I understand the bystander's fear of the narcissist and fear of getting involved. That is legitimate. But then to turn around and find the only fault you find IN THE VICTIM - that deserves contempt. Virtually every victim gets this treatment from bystanders. Narcissists just play them like fiddles.   

At 12:21 AM, Anonymous said...

on the topic of bystanders trying to calm you down or be peacemakers...... When you've been targeted one too many times and actually speak up for yourself, suddenly the bystander is there trying to "make things better"Where were they before? That is the big question. Because they could have said something a multitude of times before, when all sorts of stuff was happening, but they didn't. They only say something when they can say it and feel like they know better, that they know more, that they are more mature, or have more insight into the world and human nature than you do. Some bystanders honestly want to make you feel better, because then they feel better; you know the type, the people pleasers. But I have found the majority of bystanders are in it for the moment of celebrity that they feel when they get to use there powerful problem solving and peacekeeping skills.What I hate about bystanders is that they actually try to make you quiet down, like its a crime to show any emotions good or bad. I would like a bystander to ackowlege the targeting, but if for some reason they are in denial about that, then really can't they just let you say your part. Why can't they be your witness and hear your story? Deal with the discomfort of knowing that there is "bad" people in this world. These are the same people that say "turn that frown upside down!" in a non ironic way.  

At 2:13 AM, Kathy said...

I think these comments about the bystanders nail it.Add it up: they do nothing to counter the abuse, only speaking up to stop the victim from feeling free to do anything to put a stop to it or even act like it is happening.Those actions speak louder than words. The bystanders take the evildoer's side. There is no denying that. That is contemptible, not matter how holy the halo they put on it.They are enablers of the abuser. Like accomplices who work the situation for him to allow him to keep getting away with it. They shut the victim up for him. They call the victim naughty for even just feeling his anger, thus helping crush the victim into abject submission to the abuse. The term "innocent bystander" is an oxymoron. Like Hitler, narcissists know they can count on a high percentage of people to do this for him if he just puts on his whiny victim mask so that they can PRETEND they are righteous, not traitors betraying you to abuse. After studies of the contemptible behavior of the bystanders during the Holocaust, an inscription was placed on a monument to it (in Israel I think) that says something to the effect: 'Never again be a victim; never be a perpetrator; and never, never, never be a bystander.' Amen. Bystanders suck. To make them stop blaming the victim for rape, society had to make it politically incorrect to do so. It's about time society did the same thing with all forms of abuse. Bystanders won't stop serving as a proxy for abusers till people get slammed for doing it.  

At 3:50 AM, Anonymous said...

Witness the shameful abandonment of the victims and opponents of Saddam Hussein and his tyrannous regime by the 'Stop the War' coalition in Britain.It is impossible to appease a bully, which is why so much of this conflict-resolution crap plays into the hands of psychopaths. They are simply not singing from the same hymn-sheet as everyone else.  

At 4:21 AM, Kathy said...  

Woah! Thank you for that balm on my jet lag. As you can see, I'm operating in your time zone!Seriosusly, I agree. It's the same thing on a massive scale. A way of looking the other way and masquerading this ugly and callous betrayal as the opposite - as, of all things, "humanitarian concern."No matter where you go in the world people do this. Narcissistic and psychopathic bullies who become dictators like Hitler, Stalin, and Hussein are cynics who exploit this mass behavior like every narcissistic bully does on a smaller scale. The Islamofascist movement is collectively behaving just like that.And how can we expect Muslims to stand up to it when they see the West afraid to? I think the only hope is to shame people for behaving this way, because reason and true morality bounces off the forehead of a hypocrite. I say to them: If you want to stay out of it, fine. Your choice. But when you turn on the victim and demonize those who do have the courage to step up and take action (for the offense of putting your cowardice to shame by their example), you are sinking to the gutter
 

At 11:39 PM, Kathy said...

Join the club. I doubt there is such a thing as a victim of a narcissist who doesn't beat themselves up over having put up with it for so long. At some point you have an epiphany and see what you've done = the horrible "asked for it." By doing that, we give the N a carte blanche to abuse us; we lay down to make a nice door mat; we make it OK to abuse us because there is no response to that abuse. No complaint. No demand to even just stop abusing us. How abject. And so on.

I'm sure I don't have to describe how low we feel when we realize what we've done - how it actually TEMPTS the abuser! It's like staking out a lamb in the backyard of a wolf.

Then we alternate between anger at ourselves for it and anger at those influences in our life that trained us to think it is evil not to be a spineless wimp who keeps turning the other cheek and bending over for it with a smile. But the pain subsides. Since we are not narcissists blame doesn't kill us. We can let it lay where it may. We accept our responsibility and ARE FAIR WITH OURSELVES. Because we were influenced and trained to make this mistake. The important thing is that we stop making it.Ironic, eh? We have to repent turning the other cheek. I don't know whether you're there yet or not, but you will get there. To the point of being at peace with yourself about it. (Largely because you don't do it anymore.) Also, notice what the bitterness has been about here. Not about bystanders keeping out of it and doing nothing - about the bystanders landing on the VICTIM. Trying to supress the victim's complaint and turn the victim into docile victim, a glutton for punishment who just keeps taking it as though it ain't happening. THAT'S what makes the victim furious with the bystanders, righteously furious. We see right though them, and it ain't a pretty sight. But that isn't what you're talking about. 

  

At 6:01 AM, Anonymous said...

thanks kathy. the second post i tried didn't get through and was pretty elegant last night- let's see if i can get close now. i said something about how innocent bystander IS an oxymoron. it makes me think. i hated being an 'innocent bystander' only i choked on the word innocent. i felt helpless- but mot innocent.shoot i really can't remember what else i said. something about how having the words to put with it all is helping. anyway thanks for your site. thanks for being here. jt  

At 6:05 AM, gh said...

Ah, thanks for this one, Kathy -- always a good reminder. When I divorced my N, certain friends and family seemed to go out of their way to continue nurturing a relationship with him -- and he with them, for what better way to perpetuate abuse than to try to lure away the people who should be there to support and encourage the victim?At first, I excused it, thinking as one commenter said above that I could hardly blame them for being taken in by his act when I myself was taken in for so long. They were just being good people for giving him the benefit of the doubt, right?Then it hit me -- to give *him* the benefit of the doubt, they had to deny that same benefit to me. The day one of my supposedly oldest and closest friends berated me for not taking my marriage vows seriously and not doing enough to try to make it work, a light switch flipped. *I* didn't do enough?? All my ex had to do to save the marriage was to stop abusing me. He wouldn't/couldn't/didn't do that. In pointing the finger of blame at me this supposed friend necessarily had to accept his song and dance that he was trying everything he could and had to reject (or, better, turn a blind eye) to my side of the story.There is a time, sure, that you can excuse the bystanders for not seeing. WE do our part, no doubt, to cover for the N while being abused. But when you speak out about the abuse and the bystanders choose to blindly accept the N's stories, this is the ultimate betrayal. All you can do then, I think, is run from these "innocent" bystanders as fast as you can. They'd rather see you continue to suffer than to have to give up their comfortable ignorance.

At 8:14 AM, Anonymous said...

Once again I am struck by the intelligence, sincerity and similarities between yourselves and all of the rest of us. I believe and have been shown this CELLULARLY, that narcissistic abuse only happens to the BEST of us, and hopefully we each can take our journey of healing and make something astonishingly beautiful of our lives.

At 10:35 AM, Anonymous said...

Hey Guys, Stop! There we go again blaming everyone but the cruel manipulator who's evil makes no sense and totally diarms all within reach of it. What my son said out of hurt and pain toward his brother who he loves but does not like is, "I can't do anything because he'll burn my sh__!' That's crude but it is the bottom line, we put up with it to survive and protect our property.

Narcissists manipulate, throw unreasonable and frightening tantrums, lie, and cheat (and usually this is how they treat those they claim to love) to get the things most of us would just ask for. 

They don't make any sense and they frighten us. It is easier to be angry at ourselve or those others who innocently stand by because it is safer than showing anger toward such a creature that makes no sense and we have no idea how they will react.

Let's focus on putting the blame where it is due.


At 11:05 PM, Anonymous said... Thank you for all the comments on bystanders. My psycho ex turned so many people against me who I remain disgusted with as they had the audacity to tell me to calm down and not be upset. This sick man tormented me on the Internet for months and got a large group of people to help him. Never trust anyone who tells you not to be angry. You have a right to your anger.

Source