"When caught in a lie or challenged with the truth, they are seldom perplexed or embarrassed -- they simply change their stories or attempt to rework the facts so that they appear to be consistent with the lie." -Robert Hare, PhD
All of the smearing, lying, revisionist history, blaming me, attacks and blatant refusal "to listen, bitch" have done nothing but assured me I am fine leaving this verifiable information out there. I admit I made some mistakes. I decry his actions & words against me. None of it has threatened or even upset me in anyway.
I told the police, I told his wife. PERIOD. THAT'S ALL. Everything is ON THIS WEBSITE. ALL THE INFORMATION. For the whole world to see what a naive person I was for caring about Dunetz's and his family's safety & well-being.
So let's see some of this self-reported ethical, moral, religious & observant man's postings on the web (verified by web site owners to my legal aide) or the postings of his friends and proxies about yours truly. Some because of this very site.
(edited to protect Dunetz family and mine)
Slander? You decide:
From his site (since removed from the web, but all legal entities concerned have verification & screen shots) to enflame others about me and this very blog:
A Public Record of How She continues to defame as she follows me all over the Net, Uses the Same Aggrigaters, Joins the Same Blog Rolls, Posts to the Same Carnivals etc. If this site is missing it Just means She stopped
Follow him "all over the net"?
Defame? Why doesn't he sue me if I have "defamed" him?? If he has evidence - why doesn't he? And defaming implies lying. This site has all the proof I could publish that I'm not.
Same Aggregators? - well, yes - ONE of the many I am on he is on too
Same Blog Rolls? - well, yes - a couple he's on I am on too... oh btw - I was INVITED to some of those BlogRolls
Same Carnivals? Well, yes - ONE that I can think of...
Um... wow! You mean he and I are on the SAME WORLD WIDE WEB?!?! Golly gee whiz!!
Does that mean I am a stalker?? ROFL... I know the NYPD Computer Crimes Unit has him on their WatchList still... are they stalkers?
I can think of a few other bloggers that have a LOT MORE in common with him & his areas of interest than I do!!Hey, YWL - Wanna Join some of the "Mommy Bloggers" and "Disability Blogs" I belong to? ;) I stopped? Stopped what? TELLING THE TRUTH??
~~~~~~~~~~
HERE'S JUST ONE OF HIS POSTS ABOUT ME:
She is divorced several times so goes by her maiden name of xxxxx. She lives in xxxxx She is 55 years OLD. And I mean OLD. This woman posts inoccent people on sites as this one. She claims to be a religious jew. She should be shot for the filth she says about people she has never met and never will. She tells horrid lies about them. She has posted at least two of her victims on this site.
This woman claims YWL hurt her. Well...guess what Babs! You played his game with him. YOU had phone sex with ME. YOU! You whored yourself out on the phone. Yep! Your a whore. You blame YWL.
(1. I have never divorced, I've been estranged many years
2. Innocent? LOL
3. "should be shot" Isn't that a death threat?)
4. Its You're
5.Im old. Got a mirror, Jeff>
You post shit all over the net about this wonderful man who helps many, many people. All you do is try to pass the blame. You have made yourself look like the scum bag you really are. (Wonderful man???)
You've done this to women too. Women you don't know. Women who work hard and raise wonderful kids. You have tried to disgrace them. It didn't work. Your so fucking stupid that you didn't realize that the people who know these kind women know you have lied. (Really? like who? On this very site I posted who did what. Get a clue! ...and 'wonderful' - pardon my pukin!!!)
YOU ARE A FUCKING C*NT. A FUCKING LIER. It's come back to bite you in your smelly ass. Your name is all over the net on sites like this. You won't learn. Maybe this will help you to see the light. You owe alot of people an apology. Especially God. How the fuck do you sleep at night? Your a whore who lies. Your a mouthy bitch.
(he really is a "wonderful" man isnt he ? he doesn't like anyone who tells the truth much)
I know where you live and I know your number. Your e-mail is XXXXXXXXXX. Watch out babs. I'm out to get you. Your fucked now! I hate the thought of you.
God won't forgive you for your actions. I'm e-mailing your rabbi, XXX and many more that think they know you. Yes, I am. Your done. Nodda. Good by bitch!
(Again - threats???
Good by(sic)? Death threat?
I thought YWL was above all that)
Age: 55 Race: Not Entered Height: Not Entered Weight: Not Entered Zodiac: Not Entered Posted by Anonymous (yeah - that's him)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(update -- a friend sent me an email with this lie-laced comment by YWL on July 27, 2008) another post he made about me (I'm assuming this is the BS he told his wife):
The misspellings and bad grammar were DEAD GIVEAWAYS. Nevertheless, MySpace admin removed it and sent the IP from which it was posted and copies to myself, my attorney, NYC Computer Crimes and Dunetz's county Computer Crimes office in Yaphank, NY.
They were also going to contact his employer about this as well.
Mr Dunetz has directly violated a legally served CEASE & DESIST.
It is sad that these crimes have to go through a strict protocol to be prosecuted - often taking years - but the wheels are in motion.
or his family, friends or proxies about me similar to the above? Please contact me immediately as there are police reports on this already, a Cease & Desist in place and legal action is ongoing.
#ifmywoundswerevisible
#jeffdunetz
anonymous@bo.net2009-04-05 You know, these attacks are ridiculous when you really look at them..."he didn't want to bang you...he excused himself by saying he couldn't do this to his wife.." So..apparently this long suffering guy would have done whatever he wanted under other circumstances?? Wow, he's really the poor victim, isn't he? What a tool.
8675309@att.net09-05-24 23:04:59 Jeff Dunetz you are a disgrace to your community and to your family and friends. I hope you have a difficult time ever looking someone in the eye again and that you will know that people will look at you with disgust. They will know that you are a liar and that you will go to your grave knowing that you intentionally caused someone physical, emotional, spiritual and financial pain
billme@optonline.net2008-07-20 12:27:03 Not like he's so svelte or anything to write home about. He should check a mirror before insulting someone else. Especially such a wonderful caring person like you who helps so many people all the time. Did he carry childen? Have multiple surgeries ?
melli@comcast.com2010-03-19 08:41:44 There is a bible story that exemplifies what Barbara has done here. She is being a GOOD SAMARITAN, helping TOTAL STRANGERS that she found wounded and bleeding on the side of the road (the internet in this case), for FREE and for no reason other than it is the right thing to do.
Dunetz the Narc reminds me of the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. Barbara is not a two-faced back stabber, nor a player of women's minds / head games, like Dunetz has PROVEN HIMSELF TO BE.
Thank you Barbara for all you do to help people, unselfishly, and with the best of intentions. Turning your pain into other peoples gain. God bless you Barbara.
The narcissist (or sociopath) uses five main tools. These are gifts, affection, withdrawal, threats and violence and in exactly this order.
1. Gifts: Gifts can be used in two ways. They can either be a symbol of submission or a symbol of demand. Free people generally do not give gifts because they have what they want and do not want to submit nor demand. The communication between the victim and the narcissist is based upon gifts. The narcissist gives gifts in order to make the victim depended. The victim in return accepts these gifts and returns far greater gifts in order to accept this submission. The altruist on the other hand simply helps but does not give gifts either. Sometimes these "gifts" can be flattery, good words, support and yes ... "love." (faked of course)
2. Affection: The narcissist very early on claims soulmate-ship, special connection, ultimate love. Or he makes the victim believe these things without outright declaration. Everything seems incredible and unbelievable - a dream come true. Free people might show each other affection but generally feel comfortable with themselves. They might enjoy the company of someone but will stay focused on their own interests. The victim seems needy due to some childhood, current or past trauma(s). The narcissist is not needy in terms of affection but need for admiration within the group of chosen victims (his partner/spouse, family members, "friends", co-workers, VICTIMS) where the narcissist keeps his or her spider-web. However, the narcissist gives this affection in order to draw the victim into this spider web.This is a difficult time for the narcissist because the narcissist cannot be truly intimate with anyone. Ever. Hence, intimacy is replaced by sex.
3. Withdrawal: Once the victim's dependency is re-directed onto the narcissist, the narcissist begins to withdraw. Step by step the supposed closeness is disappearing. The victim experiences this as a great loss and the narcissist finds him or herself on a high. The narcissist thinks something like: "I on't have to give gifts, I don't have to show affection, and yet I am being admired."
4. Threats: The victim who remains needy is in shock that no affection is shown to him or her by the narcissist and starts to withdraw him- or herself. Now the narcissist starts to panic because the admiration seems to be diminishing and (s)he starts to threaten the victim. These threats are of the kind: "You are a liar. You said you loved me but now you obviously don't" or "if you loved me you'd believe me" or "you don't understand how bad I feel that you have withdrawn" or "if you loved me you would (something far outside the victim's comfort zone; usually sexually) Now, the narcissist resorts back to the first tools including gifts and sex and threatens that they will be withheld. Strangely enough, this has already happened but the narcissist will try to convince the victim that all is as it always used to be. In this sense these threats are imaginary only.
5. Violence: At one point the narcissist will fail to convince the victim any longer by means of persuasion, brainwashing and changed perception. Now the narcissist will resort to violence. This is the stage when abuse in the common sense takes place. This includes blocking out the victim, seducing the victim's friends, lying about the victim, rude or sarcastic comments to the victim, demanding abusive (things the victim would not normally do) sexual favors from the victim, bad mouthing, threatening them or their families or friends, hacking their email, hacking any websites, stalking them online, posting slander about them online and using the police with selective information provided by the narcissist.
by Dr. Ludger Hofmann-Engl
COMMENTS
http://masksofsanity.blogspot.com
This is what makes me so angry. The psychopath gives you what you want ie: "Honeymoon period" for a short while then treats you like dirt once he is done "hoovering information" from you . Then the abuse rapidly climbs.
A confrontation takes courage for many reasons, not the least of which is the self-revelation it requires. In a confrontation, we make a deliberate decision to reveal in an honest, straight forward way, how something has affected us.
We are always vulnerable when we reveal how we have reacted to something that has been said or done to us. Sharing our reflections on what we are thinking and feeling as we ponder our reactions is a very intimate process. It means leaving ourselves unprotected as we tell the person we are confronting how they have hurt, angered, intimidated, insulted, or disappointed us.
If they cannot hear what we are saying without getting defensive and attacking us, we are vulnerable to their hostile reaction.If, on the other hand, they treat the information we've shared in a respectful way, an exchange can take place and self-revealing by both the confronter and the confronted can lead to greater understanding of each other. Needless to say, we would hope the latter response would occur, but, the risk is there and the uncertainty is another reason why we need courage to confront.The potentially hot situation of confronting another can easily backfire or explode. Both the confronter and the confronted must be willing to reveal and claim why they said and/or did certain things that are hard to claim. Both must be courageous and honest and dare let go of their defensiveness or any other self-protective mechanism as they dare reveal themselves so they can understand and be understood. They must reveal what was going on for them that prompted them to say or do what they did.A confrontation is an encounter that takes place onfair grounds between equals, and it requires that both the confronter and the one being confronted expose what they were thinking and feeling when the exchange took place and be accountable for those thoughts and feelings. Accountability is an essential ingredient in a confrontation. It keeps the confrontation honest and fair. To be accountable is to claim one's part and in the claiming to begin to understand what needs to change in order to interact fairly and respectfully. If a confrontation is successful, the honest accountability and the clarity it brings, will move things in such a way that the issue at hand can be dealt with differently. Greater understanding of what's going on for both the confronter and the confronted will lead to greater respect and care for their feelings. This, of course, yields an intimacy that allows relationships to become a special gift to be treasured. Confrontation requires courage but it can yield the very desired results of deep intimacy with true caring and mutual respect.Since a confrontation calls for exposing a deeper level of one's self in an interaction, it addresses what's going on for a person underneath the words being spoken. It is not a conversation about the content of what is being said, but about one's relationship to what is being said. It begins by having the confronter reveal the underlying thoughts and feelings she/he had in response to what was said or done, and then moves to the one being confronted. The one being confronted is then called on to respond on that same level, and reveal what was going on for him/her when the exchange took place. As the conversation goes back and forth on this deeper level, each person continues to claim what was going on for them and be accountable for how they expressed themselves when unspoken thoughts and feelings were being triggered by the exchange.The conversation goes back and forth with revealing, claiming and accountability on each person's part, providing clarity and understanding of what was going on for each person. The confrontation ends with accountability being established for the thoughts and feelings and words and behaviors that contributed to the confusion, hurt, anger or fear experienced by either person. As an outgrowth of the clarity that comes from claiming what was going on underneath the words or the behavior being confronted, a certain intimacy occurs between the persons participating in the confrontation. They have communicated on a deeper level, closer to their core, and they are better known to each other as a result of the confrontation.
Future encounters should reflect what has been understood and learned from the confrontation. There should be accountability marked by mutual respect for what has occurred. This sets the stage for further encounters that are not as potentially stressful or hurtful, and not as dependent on intimidation or blame. Accountability calls for claiming with respect and fair play whatever goes on, went on in the past, or occurs in the future. It does not stop with one confrontation, it only begins there.
In contrast, an accusation rips away at the other person's layers of protection and attributes bad motives to what lies underneath. The purpose is to blame, judge and punish. It yields defensiveness and guilt, and has neither fairness or respect in it.Instead of an exchange, it is an attack. Battle lines are drawn and casualties occur.Rather than an encounter between equals, it is a power struggle to establish the superiority of the victor and the inferiority of the defeated.Someone wins and someone loses. Righteous indignation rather than respectful exploration characterizes an accusatory attack. Intimacy and clarity are never an outgrowth of such antagonism.In an accusation, attack and blame call forth defensiveness and counter attack. Ridicule, sarcasm and anger are the weapons, and the encounter leaves the embattled participants gloating or guilty. If guilty, then there is shame and punishment to deal with, not accountability and integrity. Communication is not the purpose of accusation and communication does not transpire. Altercation does.It is, therefore, not acceptable to rely on accusation and blame to protect ourselves from feelings of hurt, confusion, fear or anger. However, neither is it acceptable to just ignore what we are feeling and then build up resentment and walls. The withdrawal that results from not addressing unresolved feelings is also a hostile act. It is both hostile to the one withdrawing and to the one being withdrawn from, because it closes the door to one's self and to others at a time when conversation to resolve the feelings needs to take place.Intimacy can not occur when unresolved feelings are left unaddressed and a protective distance behind a silent stony wall separates the self from itself and from others. The barrier is not a friendly one. It is meant to keep something and someone out. Feeling shut out and shut off when the integrity of our system calls for being connected and flowing in and out means our system is violated by the withdrawal of communication within ourselves.It also means that the other relevant person who is being shut out is being violated as well. There can be no understanding or intimacy without communication and the alienation that occurs with a "shut out" is uncomfortable or even painful if the person values intimacy. Unfortunately, a withdrawer has had to shut itself down in order to find safety in withdrawal. It may seem to the withdrawers that there is no price to shutting down, but what they will one day discover is that they are no longer able to be present. That is a painful outcome. They are, therefore,eventually only a shell of themselves, alienated, never intimate with any depth of intensity because they have systematically shut themselves off to their own intensity.The first violation of shutting down, therefore, is to the self who shuts down. The subsequent violation, however, is to the other who desires intimacy with the withdrawn person. Withdrawal is the ultimate weapon. No intimacy can occur as long as the withdrawer stays withdrawn. The only recourse is to withdraw as well. This resolves the issue, but at a great cost, an alienating distance that cannot be bridged by anyone but the one who chose it, leaving others powerless.It is, therefore, in our best interest to learn to confront and to be confronted, and to be accountable and demand accountability. We can then experience intimacy with ourselves and others in a way that fulfills our greatest need, the need for knowing and being known, for caring and being cared for, and for feeling a true sense of belonging and intimacy. Neither accusation or withdrawal will provide this. So once again life takes courage. In this instance, the courage to confront. http://www.mtoomey.com/courage.html
I want to be crystal clear about why I did this blog:
BECAUSE I GOT SICK OF BEING LIED ABOUT.
My friends kept telling me to stop ignoring it - so I did. Now that I have done it, its out. (And NO I will NOT publish YWL's hooker reviews. Throwing up in the ladies room at 1 Police Plaza was enough for me with those.) I got tired of his projection - calling me a harasser, a stalker and a liar. Not because it hurts but because when it's PROVEN he lied? He just gets louder and more caustic and more hurtful to others.
I have nothing to hide except my naive and trusting nature. There have been some things said about me. I could say YWL's post is more full of slander and b.s. than Fox News... but I won't.
Things said about my credibility and what appeared to be my actions:
- If, as asserted, YWL and his wife did hire computer consultants? They need a refund.
- I never got a police warrant, a cease & desist or anything from any lawyer, ISP or anyone, anywhere at anytime. If you think I did, please show me the document I would have HAD to have signed for legal delivery. Please. I'd like to see it.
Also, I should mention that his "detective friend" who was investigating me for "harassment" was very very shocked to find out I am disabled. The detective even called my doctor to confirm (he asked me for her number). Det. D'agnostino called me back and wanted to know if YWL knew I was disabled. I told him ABSOLUTELY he was very aware, my ex-husband had chats where we talked about it and sent them to him along with the IP confirmations. He called me and was quite surprised. I distinctly remember him telling me he had no idea because I had been presented as one step away from being a violent stalker. He also had no idea I was estranged, a parent with two young children either.I repeatedly invited the Detective to come and I would take him to lunch or breakfast because I was too ill to drive to Suffolk County (which my doctor confirmed). He turned me down. I also sent them the confirmation obtained from Classmates.com that YWL paid for a membership to get some emails - mine included - and he contacted ME. I was not "stalking him for years" as he's been telling his friends. I had no idea where he'd been after we lost touch in 1976 nor did I care until HE contacted me.
His Sargeant (Sgt. Best) later called to say it was dropped because they couldn't find any corroboration that I was harassing or stalking YWL and his wife. (seen below)
But I was followed to a support group by YWL and he checked my blog for weeks... by YWL. (see post on this blog "Stalker or Just Checkin' "). WHY did YWL do that?AFRAID OF WHAT OR WHO I WOULD TELL???? - I really have no idea why someone who found me so "pathetic" and "a nutjob" spent his time following me around to SUPPORT GROUPS? Then called ME a 'stalker who has been after him for years'.... ROFL! Wait! I get it. BEING ON a support group for victims just PROVES I am a "nutjob" right? And going to the hospital for vomiting so bad I burned a hole in my esophagus or for PTSD just PROVES I am "crazy", RIGHT??
Accusations have been made. I was journaling here just for myself but many people told me to make it public. I would only do so without causing any further harm to the man (whom I will only refer to as YWL herein) and his family, any of the women I counsel, or innocent parties. I am going to make it very clear, including hard proofs, where I stand and why. Accuse me and malign me. Its ok. God knows the truth - I have no reason to turn myself inside out to prove myself to anyone. I have zero to hide Some friends suggested that YWL is still seeing Elizabeth and has gone back to a new brothel. That may or may not be true. I don't know. Its not my business to know.
And let me make this clear: Revenge is wrong, harassment is sick and wrong. Talk to God and if you need psychological help - get it.________________________________________________________________
Below is just one of the many emails I sent to "exposure" sites where YWL was posted - with his real name and sometimes his personal information! I have redacted same.
From: Ms Barbara C [mailto:barbarany_9@xxxxx.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:21 PM
Subject: Mr. JXXX Dxxxxz, gridney, yidwithlid - posted on your site
To Whom It May Concern:
I must respectfully request that your remove the above mention person from your site or database immediately. I did not make this post but someone. My reasons are detailed below:
I am now a domestic violence advocate. About 5 years ago I got coerced into a very cruel & inappropriate relationship by an old friend from college. It was a very stupid decision in a very dark period of my life. There was another woman involved and I have not heard from her since a short time after the incident.
The trauma from the ending of this wrongful relationship put me inthe hospital, in counseling, in touch with other survivors. Should you need to contact Mr. DXXXtz to verify this or forward this email to him for comment, his blog says his new address is yidwithlid@XXXX.com.
He may construe this as some further harassment on my part.
If you would like to speak to me, I can provide you with my number and full name and location. Thank you for your help in advance.
Barbara
_________________
From: <admin@cheatersexpose.com>
>To: "'Ms Barbara C'" <barbarany_9@.com>
>Subject: RE: Mr. Jxxx DXXXtz, gridney, yidwithlid - posted on your site
>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:05:28 -0600
>MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from nat.nationwidehosting.org ([74.52.90.194]) by bay0-mc5-f21.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:05:42 -0800
>Received: from adsl-68-93-121-242.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net ([68.93.121.242] helo=desktop)by nat.nationwidehosting.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.63)(envelope-from <admin@cheatersexpose.com>)id 1HOfun-0001Kw-Llfor barbarany_9@xxx.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:05:19 -0600 >X-Message-Info: LsUYwwHHNt3660MmjhEvYg2f34OAemlK3oXsmRrh6gU= >X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 >Thread-Index: AcdgJQ/jZNR9DafURhywR2/mEpWBjQABRhhQ >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 >X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report >X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - nat.nationwidehosting.org >X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - hotmail.com >X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] >X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - cheatersexpose.com >X-Source: >X-Source-Args: >X-Source-Dir: >Return-Path: admin@cheatersexpose.com >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2007 20:05:43.0129 (UTC) FILETIME=[D1FD7490:01C7602A] >
>Barbara,
> >The post was not made by you, and the poster never alleged to be you. The IP was different as was the full ISP number.
>The posting has been removed since we received your >request and proof that this was confidential material possessed by you and NYPD.
>I hope you are getting your life together.
>Administrator, >Cheaters Expose >
_____
> To: admin@cheatersexpose.com
You are absolutely right.
I hope this serves as a cautionary tale that cheating hurts everyone.
I am not interested in dating at all. I have devoted my life to my children, helping others who have been cheated on & abuse victims and cleaving to God. Thank you for removing it. I will have to do more investigating to do to see how far this has gone.
Barbara
___________________________ I will write more about what happened - in the interest of FULL DISCLOSURE. This will include pertinent emails and so on - along with full headers from the emails to vouch for their voracity.
I will make this public if I decide to.I am sorry and thank you all for listening and reading.
My father, of blessed memory - once told me his biggest problem was he was a bad liar. "No one likes a truth teller, Barbara."
So far he's been right.
I pray that somehow someone learns and the record set straight. I have always told the truth because I do believe the truth DOES set you free.
I think the misplaced sympathy out there for narcissists comes from people wishing to push unpleasant stuff out of their minds so that they have but selective awareness of an event like narcissistic abuse.
When we say that narcissists lack empathy, we mean exactly that. In plainer language, they are brutal, treating those they abuse subhumanly. Their callousness is something one must see to believe. Often the victim cannot get his or her mind around it and goes into a state of shocked disbelief of their own eyes and ears.When narcissists see that they are drawing blood, they get sadistic.This behavior makes no sense till you remember why narcissists do this. They are stomping you down to elevate themselves. In doing this, they are morally trampling you to have something to thump their chests about and give a Tarzan yell.They get HIGH on treating others like dirt.So, keep a tight grip on that fact: they don't do it because it's evil; they do it because it makes them feel good. They are sick in the head. They have unbearable pain/shame inside that keeps trying to surface to consciousness on them. This pretending to be grand by stomping you is just their way of killing that pain by keeping it repressed.Abuse is an addiction with narcissists.
The more they degrade you, the bigger dose of this high they get. Which is why they are sadistic.So, here you have them abusing their victim in cold blood sadistically. Then, when the victim complains, they turn around with their little Wouldn't-Hurt-a-Fly mask on for the bystanders, whining about their need to "heal."Yes, THEIR need to heal.Some folks don't know a joke even when it slaps them in the face like that.Right out of the bystander's mind goes what's on the other side of that coin - what that angel-faced narcissist just did to that victim.
In other words, they take this "Poor-Little-Me" act out of context.More important, the bystanders thus avoid having to know what they know about such phony face changes = that the narcissist is diabolical and laughing up his sleeve.All they let themselves see is whiny angel-face before them right now. Because it's warm and cuddly and doesn't rattle their cage or require them to do anything about anything.Or cross this guy they are suddenly afraid of.Ah, that whiny little angel-face he has, upon whom they misplace their wretched sympathy.Then they go off and correct the VICTIM for wrongdoing. Yes, that's right: some folks don't even know a joke when they tell it.The victim has sinned by feeling angry or wanting a divorce or wanting to retaliate so as to make the abuser stop it. THAT'S the only sin the ugly bystander sees. Nothing the narcissist did gets a peep out of him or her about it.
I saw the same thing with my ex. She was very pushy, but if anyone ever pushed back, she became this huge victim. Same dynamic.Here is the thing I finally discovered: With this dynamic, you can never win and this technique keeps them from every growing and moving out of the narcissism. If every time they are challenged on some statement they make, they retreat into victimhood, it means that they are avoiding the substance of the argument. It is a truth avoidance mechanism. They aren't interested in any truth. They are only interested in being heard and and seen and if someone disagrees with them, then wilt into victimhood.As usual, it is always about image.
I've had some of these apologist bystanders in my life, and I have absolutely no use for them. In my opinion, they are the only ones in the room more cowardly than the narcissist.I have come to believe that when they take the narcissist's side because they are afraid of the him, at least half of them are trying to convince themselves that they are righteous, rather than afraid.They take the path of least resistance, and when they are giving you that "You overreacted" crap, they are trying to believe it themselves, so they can push down that voice inside them that says, "You're afraid of the bully, you're just a little coward."And they are little cowards, too, those bystanders. If it isn't your battle, fine, then stay out of it. Otherwise, shut the hell up. Don't try to calm me down or play peacemaker just to hide from your own discomfort.
Two-faced, relentless sadistic abuse and butter-wouldn't-melt con artistry sounds like the N I know.But you can't blame bystanders for not seeing when even the target of abuse is repeatedly taken in by the lies, denials and gaslighting.
"...you can't blame bystanders for not seeing..."Not seeing what? That he's insincere? I think you can blame them for that. And yes, the victim unsees too. Only because the victim doesn't WANT to see, not because it's hard to see as you imply.The victim has very strong temptation into denial. Much stronger than the byestander. Much better excuse.But even the victim will eventually face facts and tell you that he or she is angry with themselves for refusing to see what was staring them in the face.So where is the byestanders confession to that effect?And the bystander has no excuse for saying, "I'm going to the north pole" and turning to head off south. It's preposterous for their only criticism to be OF THE VICTIM. It's preposterous for their sympathy to be FOR THE VICTIMIZER. And I have too often said how absurd it is to regard feeling as a sin. There is no excuse for anti-logic.I understand the bystander's fear of the narcissist and fear of getting involved. That is legitimate. But then to turn around and find the only fault you find IN THE VICTIM - that deserves contempt. Virtually every victim gets this treatment from bystanders. Narcissists just play them like fiddles.
on the topic of bystanders trying to calm you down or be peacemakers...... When you've been targeted one too many times and actually speak up for yourself, suddenly the bystander is there trying to "make things better"Where were they before? That is the big question. Because they could have said something a multitude of times before, when all sorts of stuff was happening, but they didn't. They only say something when they can say it and feel like they know better, that they know more, that they are more mature, or have more insight into the world and human nature than you do. Some bystanders honestly want to make you feel better, because then they feel better; you know the type, the people pleasers. But I have found the majority of bystanders are in it for the moment of celebrity that they feel when they get to use there powerful problem solving and peacekeeping skills.What I hate about bystanders is that they actually try to make you quiet down, like its a crime to show any emotions good or bad. I would like a bystander to ackowlege the targeting, but if for some reason they are in denial about that, then really can't they just let you say your part. Why can't they be your witness and hear your story? Deal with the discomfort of knowing that there is "bad" people in this world. These are the same people that say "turn that frown upside down!" in a non ironic way.
I think these comments about the bystanders nail it.Add it up: they do nothing to counter the abuse, only speaking up to stop the victim from feeling free to do anything to put a stop to it or even act like it is happening.Those actions speak louder than words. The bystanders take the evildoer's side. There is no denying that. That is contemptible, not matter how holy the halo they put on it.They are enablers of the abuser. Like accomplices who work the situation for him to allow him to keep getting away with it. They shut the victim up for him. They call the victim naughty for even just feeling his anger, thus helping crush the victim into abject submission to the abuse.The term "innocent bystander" is an oxymoron. Like Hitler, narcissists know they can count on a high percentage of people to do this for him if he just puts on his whiny victim mask so that they can PRETEND they are righteous, not traitors betraying you to abuse.After studies of the contemptible behavior of the bystanders during the Holocaust, an inscription was placed on a monument to it (in Israel I think) that says something to the effect: 'Never again be a victim; never be a perpetrator; and never, never, never be a bystander.'Amen. Bystanders suck.To make them stop blaming the victim for rape, society had to make it politically incorrect to do so. It's about time society did the same thing with all forms of abuse. Bystanders won't stop serving as a proxy for abusers till people get slammed for doing it.
Witness the shameful abandonment of the victims and opponents of Saddam Hussein and his tyrannous regime by the 'Stop the War' coalition in Britain.It is impossible to appease a bully, which is why so much of this conflict-resolution crap plays into the hands of psychopaths. They are simply not singing from the same hymn-sheet as everyone else.
Woah! Thank you for that balm on my jet lag. As you can see, I'm operating in your time zone!Seriosusly, I agree. It's the same thing on a massive scale. A way of looking the other way and masquerading this ugly and callous betrayal as the opposite - as, of all things, "humanitarian concern."No matter where you go in the world people do this. Narcissistic and psychopathic bullies who become dictators like Hitler, Stalin, and Hussein are cynics who exploit this mass behavior like every narcissistic bully does on a smaller scale. The Islamofascist movement is collectively behaving just like that.And how can we expect Muslims to stand up to it when they see the West afraid to?I think the only hope is to shame people for behaving this way, because reason and true morality bounces off the forehead of a hypocrite.I say to them: If you want to stay out of it, fine. Your choice. But when you turn on the victim and demonize those who do have the courage to step up and take action (for the offense of putting your cowardice to shame by their example), you are sinking to the gutter
Join the club. I doubt there is such a thing as a victim of a narcissist who doesn't beat themselves up over having put up with it for so long. At some point you have an epiphany and see what you've done = the horrible "asked for it." By doing that, we give the N a carte blanche to abuse us; we lay down to make a nice door mat; we make it OK to abuse us because there is no response to that abuse. No complaint. No demand to even just stop abusing us. How abject. And so on.
I'm sure I don't have to describe how low we feel when we realize what we've done - how it actually TEMPTS the abuser! It's like staking out a lamb in the backyard of a wolf.
Then we alternate between anger at ourselves for it and anger at those influences in our life that trained us to think it is evil not to be a spineless wimp who keeps turning the other cheek and bending over for it with a smile.But the pain subsides. Since we are not narcissists blame doesn't kill us. We can let it lay where it may. We accept our responsibility and ARE FAIR WITH OURSELVES. Because we were influenced and trained to make this mistake. The important thing is that we stop making it.Ironic, eh? We have to repent turning the other cheek.I don't know whether you're there yet or not, but you will get there. To the point of being at peace with yourself about it. (Largely because you don't do it anymore.)Also, notice what the bitterness has been about here. Not about bystanders keeping out of it and doing nothing - about the bystanders landing on the VICTIM. Trying to supress the victim's complaint and turn the victim into docile victim, a glutton for punishment who just keeps taking it as though it ain't happening. THAT'S what makes the victim furious with the bystanders, righteously furious. We see right though them, and it ain't a pretty sight. But that isn't what you're talking about.
thanks kathy. the second post i tried didn't get through and was pretty elegant last night- let's see if i can get close now. i said something about how innocent bystander IS an oxymoron. it makes me think. i hated being an 'innocent bystander' only i choked on the word innocent. i felt helpless- but mot innocent.shoot i really can't remember what else i said. something about how having the words to put with it all is helping. anyway thanks for your site. thanks for being here. jt
Ah, thanks for this one, Kathy -- always a good reminder. When I divorced my N, certain friends and family seemed to go out of their way to continue nurturing a relationship with him -- and he with them, for what better way to perpetuate abuse than to try to lure away the people who should be there to support and encourage the victim?At first, I excused it, thinking as one commenter said above that I could hardly blame them for being taken in by his act when I myself was taken in for so long. They were just being good people for giving him the benefit of the doubt, right?Then it hit me -- to give *him* the benefit of the doubt, they had to deny that same benefit to me. The day one of my supposedly oldest and closest friends berated me for not taking my marriage vows seriously and not doing enough to try to make it work, a light switch flipped. *I* didn't do enough?? All my ex had to do to save the marriage was to stop abusing me. He wouldn't/couldn't/didn't do that. In pointing the finger of blame at me this supposed friend necessarily had to accept his song and dance that he was trying everything he could and had to reject (or, better, turn a blind eye) to my side of the story.There is a time, sure, that you can excuse the bystanders for not seeing. WE do our part, no doubt, to cover for the N while being abused. But when you speak out about the abuse and the bystanders choose to blindly accept the N's stories, this is the ultimate betrayal. All you can do then, I think, is run from these "innocent" bystanders as fast as you can. They'd rather see you continue to suffer than to have to give up their comfortable ignorance.
Once again I am struck by the intelligence, sincerity and similarities between yourselves and all of the rest of us. I believe and have been shown this CELLULARLY, that narcissistic abuse only happens to the BEST of us, and hopefully we each can take our journey of healing and make something astonishingly beautiful of our lives.
Hey Guys, Stop! There we go again blaming everyone but the cruel manipulator who's evil makes no sense and totally diarms all within reach of it. What my son said out of hurt and pain toward his brother who he loves but does not like is, "I can't do anything because he'll burn my sh__!' That's crude but it is the bottom line, we put up with it to survive and protect our property.
Narcissists manipulate, throw unreasonable and frightening tantrums, lie, and cheat (and usually this is how they treat those they claim to love) to get the things most of us would just ask for.
They don't make any sense and they frighten us. It is easier to be angry at ourselve or those others who innocently stand by because it is safer than showing anger toward such a creature that makes no sense and we have no idea how they will react.
Let's focus on putting the blame where it is due.
At 11:05 PM, Anonymous said... Thank you for all the comments on bystanders. My psycho ex turned so
many people against me who I remain disgusted with as they had the
audacity to tell me to calm down and not be upset. This sick man
tormented me on the Internet for months and got a large group of people
to help him. Never trust anyone who tells you not to be angry. You have a
right to your anger.
Just a couple weeks after [YWL]s extramarital activities were found out and we had our "falling out" (he never contacted me after threatening me, never tried to speak with me or explain... I guess that's his definition of ...uh ...falling out), I was checking the hit meter for my personal blog.I stopped short. My PTSD anxiety hit the gas. I was actually shaking. I was being watched. Yes, me - the "stalker"! I was being stalked! By YWL. I double and tripled checked and sent it to a geek friend and yes, he was on my blog. Regularly - maybe once a week at least.I told my counselor, who knew I loved writing and having a blog. She advised me to find a way to block him from my blog if it was so triggering to me. I didn't want to take it down and start over. I have been blogging since 2002. I really had nothing to hide. Unfortunately, my blog platform does not yet allow for IP blocking.Finally I decided to take down my blog for 36 hrs and posted this:
************************
from my blog, barbarany9
Apologies to my other readers & visitors while I face a personal situation head on here. Scroll down for my usual blog fare.Hi [YWL ]I know you are coming here.... looks like Saturdays after or before Shul. Domain Name optonline.net ? (Network) IP Address 24.47.134.# (Optimum Online (Cablevision Systems)) ISP Optimum Online (Cablevision Systems) Location Continent : North America Country : United States (Facts) State : XXX City : XXXX Operating System Microsoft WinXP Browser Firefox 2.0 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/20070309 Firefox/2.0.0.3 Javascript disabled ARIN location: XXX XXX Drive, XXXXXX XXXX, XX 11XXX Time of Visit Mar 26 2005 9:50:07 am Last Page View Mar 26 2005 9:55:17 am
Please read on.I have so many questions: but one big one - since you found me so disgusting, pathetic and unworthy what did you want to find out with this search? :
Do you feel better now that you know every forum or site I may be on?
Who's the REAL stalker here?
Does it make you feel good to see the pain & agony you have caused me?
That I am spending time still trying to unravel myself?
Are you still wrapped up in feeling sorry for yourself or blaming me and calling me a stalker?
Have you checked if its really me who's doing it?
I hope you get help. Ongoing, long term help.This had nothing to do with jealousy or obsession - but with doing the right thing.
I had a feeling about Julie's brothel and your online sex-partner ads long before - I kept asking... hoping you would open up to me. But you didn't - you just continued to make it very clear that you wanted nothing further to do with me except use me.
I could have gotten you help.Now you're representing me as "fixated" with you, harassing you and "too much of a temptation" for you to be in touch with me FOR REAL. You're painting me as 'out to hurt your wife' when YOU were the one who hurt her. The police and my attorney has chats where YOU said some very nasty things about her and I STUCK UP FOR HER!!
I heard you are trying to make sure everyone hears your story, your "version" of what happened that paints me like some avenging harpy. I got the big hints that I went from college mercy-fuck to internet freebie for an unemployed old acquaintance.You said many things about me in college when you thought I didn't hear you. Then you painted your own special picture of me to Elizabeth and I bet now to everyone else. I get it.
I GET IT.
Put on your big boy panties and leave me alone.The truth is out there. Anyone who really knows you, will believe it. No matter how hard you try to couch them as "lies" and "falsehoods'; no matter what you've been able to convince your wife and family of... the TRUTH and DOCUMENTATION is staying out there. Forever.
- Barbara
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Additionally, as a safety precaution I told the owners of a couple online support groups for panic, anxiety & trauma I belonged to that the NYPD were watching my accounts. They asked for YWL's IP number and the IPs the NYPD were using, they didn't want myself or any of their users hassled. I got them and turned them over. Not 36 hours after doing this TWO SUPPORT SITE OWNERS told me YWL had been on their sites... after googling my id and clicking to my posts!! I flipped out. I wasn't safe anywhere. I would never be safe again. I didn't sleep for days.I left the MSN Groups but they REFUSED to remove YWL's photos or the story - I begged. I only wanted support for my PTSD... YWL took ZERO responsibility for what he'd done to me - and god only knows what Elizabeth was doing! Eventually my therapist got me to reclaim that ID and not run and hide, not create some new identity. I was nothing and no one to him. I'm not entitled to be hurt, upset and yes - angry. I would be happy to discuss it all like adults but he won't speak to me - because I supposedly hurt his family on purpose because I am some sort of desperate stalker? He'd rather attack, attack, attack. Silly me, I thought at least I could be a cordial adult and be polite. It is a good article. Unfortunately YWL & I belong to the same blogging community. Got to wonder what he's told his REAL friends there about me; since he did mention me in this post. It is sad he will go to any lengths to silence the truth. That's why this blog will remain up, for MY peace of mind... no one else's. I am doing this for ME.
Of course we are to cut YWL all sorts of slack for my 'hurting him, his family, etc.' but no slack for me being completely traumatized, ending up in the hospital a few times, being unable to drive or do much for weeks thereafter, dismantling my computer (according to him I was supposedly stalking & harassing him then. I wonder how I did that with NO COMPUTER???)
--noooo, somehow he stalks me and reads all my pain & anguish but HE'S THE VICTIM.
He still takes ZERO personal accountability. Scary. Heaven forbid any of us were a real human being not some THING that could be clicked off with his mouse or blocked on IM, huh?
(Note: At this time I knew nothing about Sociopathy and how they operate. YWL is TEXTBOOK.)
FROM: YWL TO: Elizabeth_Green@###.com, Barbara [lewd misspelling of my last name]@###.net DATE: 3/26/2004
I am writing down every day. I see the pain I cased every second of very day. my wife crying (sometimes she throws up) every day and ail cause of me. My kids having no interpersonal relationships because I have been selfish ant too lazy to give them the attention thy deserve. I have a friend my [clergyman] who I made feel so uncomfortable by mixing him up in all this Even quitting the #### was selfish. .
And I am also profoundly sorry for the pain that I have cased to you both. Every Day I pray to God to relive your pain and that of my family. and then I pray that he bring me closer to [Him] in mind and spirit. so I can change the kind of horrible person I have been.
Babrara you are right about those 12 steps but they take time...the first one was discussing it all and that goes way beyond my time on line it goes to the way I relate to my family help my kids,.
My rabbi says to do true teshuva, I have to change, and I am working on int,,, it is a lng drawn out process.,.
I got rid of aol adn yahoo and only have the original MSN I dont go ton here, I was advised to no longer put my self in oppottunities where I have to be strong at least untill I have shanged form the creep I was, .
Someday with God’s help I may be a decent human being again..
Am truely sorry for the pain I caused and all I can say is that ai sm trying to make that person go awayIhis is from the heart, wheater u believe or not.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Isn't YWL's 'apology' above a perfect example of this?:
How NOT to Apologize when you have Seriously Fucked Up.
1.) Apologize in email. Hey, why should you actually have to FACE the person you harmed and DEAL with the real consequences of your actions - like the fact that they might still be hurt and upset? It's so much easier to do it from a distance - that way you can go around telling everyone how you made all this EFFORT to rectify things. If questioned on this, you can fall back on your old excuses about how the other person is just too scary to face in person. (People you have betrayed aren't usually very compliant). Call them scorned, a stalker or obsessed. Say it will hurt your other friends or family. Ignore the fact that this avoidance is completely contradicting any statements you might make about "taking responsibility" for your behavior (see below). 2.) Make sure the "confession", er, apology comes MONTHS or years after the incident. It's just too much work to actually own up immediately afterwards. Let's face it, you're not after any real resolution, and you are not offering any kind of restitution - you are looking to assuage your guilty conscience and buy absolution, and, if you play your cards right, you can get attention for your act of "bravery" in coming forward. If it's absolution you are looking for, why not join the Catholic church instead?
"Powerful and sneaky people use apologies as end runs around repentance. They betray a trust; and, when they have been found out, they say they are sorry for "mistakes in judgement". They smile through their oily apologies when their crime calls for quakes of repentance. They get by only because we have lost our sense of the difference between repentance for wrong and apologies for bungling.... We should not let each other get away with it. A deep and unfair hurt is more than a mere faux pas. We cannot put up with everything from everyone; some things are intolerable. When someone hurts us deeply and unfairly [deliberately], an apology will not do the job; it only trivializes a wrong that should not be trifled with." -- Lewis B. Smedes, "Forgive and Forget"
3.) Use generic sweeping statements, so that you don't have to own up to, or deal with any specifics. This is a great way to avoid any REAL acknowledgement for the stunts you have pulled, while giving the appearance of sincerity. As Dr. Phil (C. McGraw) says:
"Acknowledgement is a no-kidding, unvarnished, bottom-line, truthful confrontation with yourself about what you are doing or not doing, or what you are putting up with in your life that is destructive. It's not some pious, phoney-baloney, half-hearted rendition of what you think they want to hear. Nor is it a watered-down, politically correct 'confession' that you think will buy you closure at the expense of truth. I mean brutal reality: slapping yourself in the face and admitting what you are doing to screw up your life. This also means admitting that you are getting payoffs for what you're doing, however sick or subtle those payoffs are."
And God knows, real acknowledgement and acceptance of responsibility is not what you were after or you wouldn't have apologized in email in the first place.
YWL are you BUTTHURT?
4.) Try to evoke sympathy for yourself as part of the apology. Use worn-out lines like "It may not mean much to you now...". Thank the person for their past "support" of you in your (largely self-inflicted) trials and tribulations as a not-so-subtle reminder of how "rough" things have been for you and your other friends/ family. You can also use this as a way to look magnanamous and introspective while avoiding taking any real action. Whine about how you are finally working on your "issues" (never mind that you have been saying the same thing for years), as if that is supposed to mean something real. Avoid any discussion about what you are doing *specifically* to work on those issues. After all, (despite your previous litany of lies) the person you are apologizing to should trust that you really mean what you say this time, right? Talk about how you are finally accepting responsibility for the consequences of your behavior, and then avoid making any effort to talk to the other person face to face. Talk about how you miss the fun you had with the other person (carefully avoiding any mention of the fun you had at that person's expense at the same time). See if there is still a chain left to be yanked. Remember, this is all about assuaging your conscience and repairing your damaged image - not about doing real work or genuine caring for the other person, but nobody else needs to know that. With a little careful manipulation, you can use this apology to get sympathy and attention from other people as well. 5.) Don't give any reasons about why you have suddenly decided to extend this tremendous effort (writing an email) after so much time has passed.It is equally important that you avoid replying to any questions they might ask about specifics. Remember, this isn't really about making amends, it's about making yourself feel better.
6.) Expect instant redemption and forgiveness. Remember, no matter what you have done, a few words are supposed to magically wipe away all the pain of the past with no further work required by you. Now that you have made a token gesture, the other person should just "forgive and forget" and "move on" and stop talking about it or asking you for accountability so that you find it easier to sleep at night. 7.) Get upset when your trite "olive branch" isn't received with warmth and acceptance. Go whining to whomever will listen, about how you made all this *EFFORT*, and how *HARD* it was for you to take that step (what with all your issues, and all), and how it was REJECTED because that awful person actually expected you to DO SOMETHING REAL. After all, you have ISSUES and such, and that means you should be exempted from behaving in a manner congruent to your words, and everyone should coddle you and praise even the smallest effort on your part. 8.) Take no further action. Use pat phrases like, "I'm doing my best to take responsiblity for the consequences of my behaviour", but don't actually DO anything beyond sending the email. It plays well, and you can always use that "doing my best" as your cop-out when you don't actually follow-through - it wasn't a REAL commitment to change, it was a "best-effort", and your emailed apology was a fine demonstration of how good THAT is. I can't stress enough how important it is that you don't reply to any questions the other person might have about your email, especially ones that ask "why now?", "what specifically do you acknowledge was inappropriate?" and "what specifically you are doing to take responsibility?". After all, you don't owe them any explanation.
Like I said, this isn't about doing anything for *them*, it's all about YOU. After all, once you've made your apology, you can wash your hands of the whole messy affair and wipe your conscience clean without having to dirty yourself with uncomfortable things like integrity, sincerity, action or actually facing the person you harmed.
btw -- law enforcement told me he NEVER got rid of any of his instant messengers. Just BLOCKED me. It was just a few weeks before he changed his online identity and went right back to it. ONE MORE FOR MR. RELIGIOUSLY OBSERVANT The 'sweet person' I thought I knew turned out to be a predator who gets his kicks out of lying, coercing and sexually overpowering women - whether it's by saying 'I love you' indiscriminately or paying for it. And the way YWL misspelled my name? sent me back to the emergency room. I was in the hospital a lot then - yet I was accused of 'stalking' him at the same times. Thanks for that. I didn't realize I was that ALL-POWERFUL...
